# Who counts as a "Southerner"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 29, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540 "2013-08-29T23:04:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/161 "2013-09-04T16:34:45Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I also have no idea if I personally am a Southerner. I live in Northern Arkansas, but have a Southern Missouri accent that I try to neutralize as much as possible. I pronounce “pin” and “pen” differently, Can you do it in conversation? I have to stop and consciously put my tongue in the right place. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/162 "2013-09-04T17:31:00Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Bridget** and **Labrador** , Deep South or just South? > . Both, but it’s a ridiculous distinction anyway. There is almost no difference between a small town in NC and a small town in SC. Ditto TN and GA. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/163 "2013-09-04T19:46:15Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > I think we’ve discussed this before, and concluded that fried chicken and waffles are not actually a Southern thing. I grew up in the Deep South and never heard of it or encountered it until the 1990s. > > My recollection from the previous thread is that we concluded that fried chicken and waffles as a combo started somewhere in the black diaspora outside the South, possibly in California. I’ve never seen chicken and waffles except on travel/cooking shows on TV and it’s always places in California that are featured. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/164 "2013-09-04T20:33:55Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Bridget** and **Labrador** , Deep South or just South?.. You’re the expert. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/165 "2013-09-04T20:55:42Z")
Labrador, NL is Deep North. [Roscoe’s House of Chicken and Waffles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe%27s_House_of_Chicken_and_Waffles) (Los Angeles) popularized the food, for sure. I’ve heard of southern origins, but wonder if that’s just because both fall under the soul food category. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/166 "2013-09-04T21:10:47Z")
I have not know waffles to be popular, even for breakfast. ---
**Author:** ![Accidental\_Martyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ce7236/32.png) [@Accidental\_Martyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Accidental_Martyr)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/167 "2013-09-04T23:14:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I have not know waffles to be popular, even for breakfast. Have you ever been to Waffle House? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/168 "2013-09-04T23:48:20Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > **Bridget** and **Labrador** , Deep South or just South? > > Thanks for providing confirmation. But as an agnostic, doesn’t this take some of the lustre off of your beloved South? I find the very notion of schools operating this way maddening. As you say, if a single atheist comes in and tries to rock the boat, they are going to face a serious shitstorm. That is not at all cool in my book. No, it doesn’t bother me at all. The schools themselves didn’t operate under any particular religious doctrine other than having generic Christmas displays and prayer (or a moment of silence) before major events. It was just some individual people that did. There were prayer and Bible study groups before school or during lunch for anyone wanted to attend but I think those should be allowed anywhere under Freedom of Assembly. There was a big enough split between the Fundamentalists and everyone else so that it wasn’t as unified as it sounds. Even people of the same technical faith didn’t always agree on much. That is why you will often see two or more Southern Baptist or fundamentalist churches next door to each other in the Deep South. The congregations split because of a schism at some point. I am still a church-going agnostic and not an atheist (I personally don’t respect vocal atheists in general even today) so I never had a problem with the way religion was handled in public where I grew up. I suppose we could have been forced to make allowances for hypothetical Muslim or strong atheist students but it simply never came up so it is rather pointless to theorize about. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/169 "2013-09-05T02:26:18Z")
> [@Accidental\_Martyr](#): > > Have you ever been to Waffle House? Dear G-d, no. It stinks of pancakes, the odor makes me ill. Obviously I was there once to smell the reek. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/170 "2013-09-05T03:03:38Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > “States that were part of the Confederacy” is close, but it’s not exactly right either. Why are you talking about Hawaii? No one here has mentioned it. Read the first sentence of the op’s post while i look for a geography book to beat you over the head with. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/171 "2013-09-05T07:43:28Z")
I don’t recall anyone ever using “the southern United States” to include Hawaii. Incidentally, I don’t like being threatened with beating. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/172 "2013-09-05T09:53:12Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I don’t recall anyone ever using “the southern United States” to include Hawaii. Incidentally, I don’t like being threatened with beating. Around 1959 or so, hawaii became a state, if thats what you’re missing. If you can spell “map,” you’ll see that it is fairly south, i beleive only part of Florida is further south. Maybe you should talk to different people? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/173 "2013-09-05T10:53:35Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > Around 1959 or so, hawaii became a state, if thats what you’re missing. If you can spell “map,” you’ll see that it is fairly south, i beleive only part of Florida is further south. Maybe you should talk to different people? No, no part of Florida is farther south than anywhere in Hawaii. Hawaii is solely in the tropics, while the southernmost point of Florida is still outside the tropics. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/174 "2013-09-05T11:00:53Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > No, no part of Florida is farther south than anywhere in Hawaii. Hawaii is solely in the tropics, while the southernmost point of Florida is still outside the tropics. Okay, the eight main islands are solely in the tropics. There are hundreds of uninhabited islands stretching across 1500 miles, and some of those may be farther north than southern Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/175 "2013-09-05T11:20:23Z")
This gives the usual definition of “the southern United States.” Note that it doesn’t include Hawaii: > **[Southern United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States)** > > The Southern United States (sometimes Dixie, also referred to as the Southern States, the American South, the Southland, or simply the South) is a geographic and cultural region of the United States of America. It is between the Atlantic Ocean and the Western United States, with the Midwestern and Northeastern United States to its north and the Gulf of Mexico and Mexico to its south. > Historically, the South was defined as all states south of the 18th century Mason–Dixon line, the Ohio River, ... And quit making insinuations that I’m too stupid to use a map. Of course I know the relative positions of the states on a map. That’s not the question. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/176 "2013-09-05T17:22:22Z")
The West Coast should stop calling itself the West Coast while the west coast of Guam exists. Canada can’t be the Great White North as [parts of Canada are south of the US](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Detroit,+MI&hl=en&sll=42.358544,-82.650146&sspn=2.934606,7.13562&oq=detroit&hnear=Detroit,+Wayne,+Michigan&t=m&z=11). The Northern Mariana Islands are south of the CONUS. Let’s all be over-literal in everything. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/177 "2013-09-05T17:25:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I have not know waffles to be popular, even for breakfast. Do you ever leave your house? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/178 "2013-09-05T17:30:35Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Do you ever leave your house? Only when I must. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/179 "2013-09-05T18:35:11Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > [Roscoe’s House of Chicken and Waffles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscoe%27s_House_of_Chicken_and_Waffles) (Los Angeles) popularized the food, for sure. I’ve heard of southern origins, but wonder if that’s just because both fall under the soul food category. That sounds like a likely point of origin. Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540/180 "2013-09-05T18:46:50Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > That sounds like a likely point of origin. Thanks for the info. Although…the information in the [chicken and waffles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_and_waffles) entry on Wikipedia suggests the combo might have originated in Harlem in the 1930s: > [@](#): > > The combination of chicken and waffles does not appear in early Southern cookbooks such as Mrs. Porter’s Southern Cookery Book, published in 1871 or in What Mrs. Fisher Knows About Old Southern Cooking, published in 1881 by former slave Abby Fisher. Fisher’s cookbook is generally considered the first cookbook written by an African American.[2] The lack of a recipe for the combination of chicken and waffles in Southern cookbooks from the era may suggest a later origin for the dish. > > The dish was served as early as 30’s in Harlem locations as Tillie’s Chicken Shack, Dickie Wells jazz nightclub, and Wells Supper Club. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-counts-as-a-southerner/667540.md?page=10)