# Who decides “proper” pronunciation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111 "2025-06-02T18:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/21 "2025-06-02T19:37:03Z")
My 2¢ about MW’s order of pronunciations. I can’t attest to other dictionary editors, but at least in their case, they are clear that order does not indicate preferential pronunciation. That’s simply due to the limitations of the print medium–something has to come first. They indicate pronunciations that “some people” consider substandard with an obelus. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/22 "2025-06-02T19:37:27Z")
Who decides? Self-appointed pedants. They don’t have any authority, but they’d like to you imagine that they have. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/23 "2025-06-02T19:40:08Z")
The pee-dant with the see-gar was in the cee-ment pond. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/24 "2025-06-02T19:40:31Z")
In some parts of Philly and Jersey, it is “wooder “ . This accent is somewhat exaggerated in Rocky. Kevin Bacon, who grew up in the area, does it flawlessly in Sleepers. IMHO for most situations, if the person you are speaking to can understand you then your pronunciation is just fine. I work in a virtual call center and deal with a variety of accents. If I can be sure what the caller is saying, we’re good. Prior to a call a few months ago, I would have thought it impossible to pronounce white and black so that they sounded exactly the same. I was proven wrong. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/25 "2025-06-02T19:48:58Z")
The BBC. And you are going to ask: isn’t this something George Bernard Shaw would be involved with? Absolutely! the **BBC Advisory Committee on Spoken English** > The Advisory Committee on Spoken English was founded by [John Reith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Reith,_1st_Baron_Reith), the BBC’s first managing editor, with the intent to “maintain a standard of educated Southern English”. The founding members were:[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Pronunciation_Unit?utm_source=chatgpt.com#cite_note-FOOTNOTESchwyter2008-2) > > - [Robert Bridges](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bridges), poet (chairman) > - [Logan Pearsall Smith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Pearsall_Smith), literary scholar > - [George Bernard Shaw](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw), playwright > - [Daniel Jones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Jones_(phonetician)), phonetician > - [Johnston Forbes-Robertson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnston_Forbes-Robertson), actor > - [Arthur Lloyd James](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Lloyd_James), phonetician (honorary secretary) > > It held meetings a few times a year to decide on “general principles” of pronunciation for announcers, and “rulings” on “doubtful words”, which were published in the _[Radio Times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Times)_. > **[BBC Pronunciation Unit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Pronunciation_Unit)** > > The BBC Pronunciation Unit, also known as the BBC Pronunciation Research Unit, is an arm of the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) comprising linguists (phoneticians) whose role is "to research and advise on the pronunciation of any words, names or phrases in any language required by anyone in the BBC". It does not concern itself with promoting any accent, despite the popular association between Received Pronunciation and the BBC. Its predecessor was the BBC Advisory Committee on Spoken En Note it was founded in 1926 so its centenary is 2026–which is next year! So someone needs to be sure to remember to start a centenary thread next year! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/26 "2025-06-02T19:58:04Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > phonetician Is this a modern Anglophonia obsession, or were there Phoenician phoneticians? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/27 "2025-06-02T20:07:10Z")
> [@Dirtymartini](#): > > Is there something wrong with saying SEE-gar or SEE-ment pond? Lots of people pronounce it like that? It’s the judgmental word “wrong” that’s inappropriate here. Those pronunciations aren’t inherently “wrong”, but they do carry a stigma that some may wish to avoid. It’s the same with “IN-surance” that was mentioned previously. I can only imagine that the pronunciation parallels words like “insincere” and “infallible” where the “in-” prefix is emphasized because it’s a negation. But since “insurance” is not the opposite of “surance”, the pronunciation is just annoying. As something of a rationalist on these matters, I tend to think that in many cases – certainly not all – there’s an objective criterion for how a word should be pronounced, and that is that the pronunciation that is closest to how the word is actually spelled should be the preferred one. We had a bit of an argument in another thread about the correct pronunciation of “February” that illustrates this principle. This is one of those words that’s slightly awkward to pronounce and is therefore subject to lazy vocalization, in particular, a tendency to drop the “r”, making it sound more like “Febwuary” which indeed rolls off the tongue more easily. This is actually closer to the accepted British pronunciation (but hey, these are the folks who somehow turned “Worcestershire” into “Wooster”) but, ironically, it’s the unwashed masses in the colonies – the US and Canada – who pronounce it with greater precision. Both pronunciations **[can be heard here at the Cambridge Dictionary](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/february)**. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/28 "2025-06-02T20:10:02Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > We had a bit of an argument in another thread about the correct pronunciation of “February” that illustrates this principle. For the record, that other thread: [Pronounciation: Is ‘fenta-nawl’ the new ‘new-cue-lur’?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronounciation-is-fenta-nawl-the-new-new-cue-lur/846900/) was where I posted the the reply to which **Dirtymartini** responded in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/29 "2025-06-02T20:15:33Z")
Uh, no. The English pronunciation without the first ‘r’ came first. The ‘r’ as added later by ‘scholars’ who wanted the spelling closer to it’s original roots. [Cite.](https://linguisticdiscovery.com/posts/february/) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/30 "2025-06-02T20:18:23Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > No one “decides;” unlike some countries and languages (probably most notably the [Académie Française](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise) for French), American English does not have a regulatory organization which dictates such things. Even the Academie Francaise can’t regulate how words are pronounced outside of Paris. Just listen closely to someone from Belgium, the Alsace, or Canada. Here in St. Louis, Missouri we celebrate our French heritage by mispronouncing every French landmark or street name passed down by our founders. Not only that, but we brand as “not from here” anyone who doesn’t pronounce them our way. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > For what it’s worth, my wife is a retired elementary-school teacher. It absolutely grinds her gears when she hears a word pronounced or used “incorrectly,” and she can’t restrain herself from audibly correcting it (even if she’s just talking to the television). I don’t know whether she “can not” or “may not.” 😁 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/31 "2025-06-02T20:22:28Z")
That isn’t my point. “February” has been spelled that way for hundreds of years, and I dispute your article’s contention that “most people” don’t pronounce the first “r” – as I said in the other thread, the standard pronunciation of “February” in the US and Canada is exactly the way it’s spelled, and my cite for this (in the previous post) is the formidable Cambridge English Dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/32 "2025-06-02T20:22:40Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I don’t know whether she “can not” or “may not.” 😁 To quote comedian Ron White: > [@](#): > > I had the right to remain silent… but I didn’t have the ability. ---
**Author:** ![Dirtymartini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Dirtymartini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dirtymartini)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/33 "2025-06-02T20:41:18Z")
What is the proper pronunciation of cigar and cement? And who decides that? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/34 "2025-06-02T20:51:10Z")
I do. It’s pronounced “cigar” and “cement”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/35 "2025-06-02T20:52:04Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > No one “decides;” unlike some countries and languages (probably most notably the [Académie Française](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_Fran%C3%A7aise) for French), American English does not have a regulatory organization which dictates such things. > > The “proper” pronunciation (well, really, the “standard” or “accepted” pronunciation) is ultimately the product of how the word is used by people in everyday conversation – and that can, and does, change and evolve over time. Yep, exactly, Good solid post. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Most people pronounce “forte” wrong. In music it is “for-tay” but as for the OP it is “fort”, but the music way isnt 'wrong". > [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Even the Academie Francaise can’t regulate how words are pronounced outside of Paris. Just listen closely to someone from Belgium, the Alsace, or Canada. My wifes mother spoke fluent french-canadian, but learned while in Paris to keep to English for anything more than a word or two, as the parisians made fun of that accent. Of course, they are- or were- famous for being rude. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/36 "2025-06-02T20:52:43Z")
Fair enough. Some random person on the Internet or someone with a PhD in Linguistics. Tough choice on credibility. [February.](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/february) From the formidable Cambridge Dictionary (unless there are multiple ones): _February_ _noun_ _**us /ˈfeb·juˌer·i, ˈfeb·ru-/(abbreviation Feb.)**_ Can’t account for UKer pronunciation. But as far back as you can go, American dictionaries have listed both pronunciations. ---
**Author:** ![Dirtymartini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Dirtymartini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dirtymartini)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/37 "2025-06-02T20:54:34Z")
So people who say SEE-gar are wrong? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/38 "2025-06-02T20:58:59Z")
I’m not sure how many times people are going to answer this question. No one said that was wrong, but it’s a regionalism. So, if you pronounce it see-gar, snooty Eastern people like myself might think you’re from some small Southern or Midwestern town. Are you even reading your own thread? There is no real right or wrong if people can understand you, there’s just usage. I’m sure see-gar and see-ment are considered just fine regionalisms. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/39 "2025-06-02T21:00:41Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Fair enough. Some random person on the Internet or someone with a PhD in Linguistics. Tough choice on credibility. Not a tough choice at all. See below: > [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > But as far back as you can go, American dictionaries have listed both pronunciations. I don’t dispute that. As I said in the other thread, there may well be variations in the way it’s pronounced, and they’re probably regional. What I dispute is your contention that **nobody** pronounces “February” the way it’s spelled, or your PhD hero’s contention that “most people” drop the first “r”. **[Because that’s just plain wrong.](https://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/february)** Click on the speaker icon for the US pronunciation to hear how it’s supposed to be pronounced. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/40 "2025-06-02T21:05:15Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m not sure how many times people are going to answer this question. No one said that was wrong, but it’s a regionalism. So, if you pronounce it see-gar, snooty Eastern people like myself might think you’re from some small Southern or Midwestern town. This. A hundred times this. @Dirtymartini : this is fundamentally the answer to your question. A pronunciation that’s common to the South or Midwest, to rural areas, and/or as indicative of a lower-class dialect, sometimes gets looked down on by people from other areas, who are under the impression that only _their way_ of speaking is correct. > [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s the same with “IN-surance” that was mentioned previously. I can only imagine that the pronunciation parallels words like “insincere” and “infallible” where the “in-” prefix is emphasized because it’s a negation. But since “insurance” is not the opposite of “surance”, the pronunciation is just annoying. For the last decade, my primary client has been a major regional health insurance company in Alabama. My clients are all college-educated, middle-to-upper-middle class, and almost without exception, were all born and raised in Alabama or Georgia. They _all_ pronounce the word as “IN-sure-ance.” It’s a regionalism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111.md?page=3)