# Who decides “proper” pronunciation? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 2, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111 "2025-06-02T18:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/101 "2025-06-03T13:24:01Z")
I think I stole that from a Steven Pinker book, which would make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/102 "2025-06-03T13:42:28Z")
Grammar and vocabulary can differ in different dialects just as much as different pronunciations. It possible for speakers of one dialect to think that two sentences (like “Where are you” and “Where are you at”) to have the same meaning in one dialect and to have two different meanings in another dialect. Then two people, one speaking one dialect and the other speaking the other dialect, can go back and forth arguing whether they have the same meaning or not. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/103 "2025-06-03T13:43:51Z")
Well known as the Boston joke. Apparently not that well known in Boston though. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/104 "2025-06-03T13:57:41Z")
My elementary school teachers were high priestesses of the Funk & Wagnalls. Any time a new word came up in anything we read, we all had to look it up in our dictionaries. The following pronunciations have stuck with me as the correct ones, therefore: Plantain rhymes with mountain, I’m certain. The N in kiln is silent! There is NO i after the v in mischievous, so the pronunciation “Miss chee vee us” is just plain wrong. Carry on… ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/105 "2025-06-03T14:00:12Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > > > textbook. > > @Ann_Hedonia do you remember whether they taught you “Mid-Atlantic” pronunciation or some other variety. I really don’t remember. This was a course every theatre and broadcasting student took their first semester - I was studying tech, not performance and I still had to take it. This was a state college in a southern US state and its purpose was to teach the necessary skill of speaking without the strong regional accents most of the students possessed in varying degrees. The woman that taught the course really knew what she was doing and it was highly personalized, with each student getting personal coaching based on their own speech. If Mid-Atlantic vs Midwestern came up, I don’t remember. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/106 "2025-06-03T14:35:20Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > In some parts of Philly and Jersey, it is “wooder “ . This accent is somewhat exaggerated in Rocky. Kevin Bacon, who grew up in the area, does it flawlessly in Sleepers. Ah yes, Philly’s got a charming sound all its own. Here’s a few more examples: Eagles → “Iggles” Home → “He-um” (nasal flattening) “I’m goin’ he-um to watch the Iggles and eat a hoagie wit a wooder ice.” Attitude → “Ahtitude” “You got a lotta ahtitude for someone who eats scrapple.” Wash → “Warsh” “Warsh them jeans before the Mummers Parade.” **The Phantom “R”:** Idea → “Idear” “I got a great idear for the Mummers float this year.” Umbrella → “Umbreller” “Grab your umbreller, it’s rainin’ like crazy out!” Tuna → “Tuner fish” “You want a hoagie with tuner and provolone?” Soda → “Soder” “Wanna split a soder with me, hon?” **South Philly specific:** Italian → “Ital-yin” “I’m makin’ Ital-yin gravy tonight.” Mayor → “Mare” “The Mare don’t do nothin’ for South Philly.” I’m moving back to Philly after a 40 year absence. I have to brush up on my Philly-ease. Don’t think you can embarrass Philadelphians by pointing out their odd pronunciations. Their attitude is, _“no one likes us, we don’t care.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/107 "2025-06-03T14:53:33Z")
I love your post. Made it plain and simple to understand Phillyspeak. I especially like the extra “r”, that made me laugh! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/108 "2025-06-03T14:58:42Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > Don’t think you can embarrass Philadelphians by pointing out their odd pronunciations. Their attitude is, _“no one likes us, we don’t care.”_ Is there anywhere that people care about what other people think of their accent? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/109 "2025-06-03T15:02:21Z")
Yeah this is entirely accurate. I have noticed that in certain parts of the city, it is pronounced “Eye talian “. Years ago, there was a book Philly Phonics- Now Youse Can Talk Like Us! Oh and in some areas, the name of the city is Fluffya. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/110 "2025-06-03T15:02:22Z")
The best way to figure out how you stress syllables is to put them into a limerick line. Consider these lines: _The Poster was not insincere_ That’s fine, right? As is: _That stupid insurance buffoon_ But for some folks, this next line is off: _I challenged the insurance claim_ For me it’s fine. Does anyone like this line? _I challenged the insincere claim_ I can’t stand it: it puts the stress on “in”, which is all off for me. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/111 "2025-06-03T15:02:54Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > > [@Tibby](#): > > > > Don’t think you can embarrass Philadelphians by pointing out their odd pronunciations. Their attitude is, _“no one likes us, we don’t care.”_ ⁢ > > Is there anywhere that people care about what other people think of their accent? ⁢ Plenty of places, if you speak a non-prestige dialect. Much of my generation had their original accents kinda stamped out by school, even. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/112 "2025-06-03T15:07:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How dy’all pernounce victuals? It ain’t vick-chew-uls. I’ve never spoken that word in my life and I don’t intend to start now. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/113 "2025-06-03T15:16:39Z")
I don’t generally have a problem with it. The word “insincere” has two stressed syllables, one primary and one secondary to me. IN-sin-CERE. Switching them around is okay. (in-SUR-ance vs. IN-sur-ANCE/-ance is not that: it’s just that it has two common pronunciations) I was actually under the impression this was the usual case in English: that stress patterns tend to alternate, and that pure dactyls and anapests were rare. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/114 "2025-06-03T15:50:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Well known as the Boston joke. Apparently not that well known in Boston though. I’m still waiting for a someone to open a Middle Eastern restaurant in Mission Hill called “Pita Bent.” ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/115 "2025-06-03T17:10:47Z")
I had victuals at my nup-shuls. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/116 "2025-06-03T17:13:08Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Victuals is pronounced vittles. It always has been since it entered the language hundreds of years ago. Here’s the American Heritage. > > > The modern pronunciation of victual, (vtl), represents an Anglicized pronunciation of the Old French form vitaille, which was borrowed into English in the early 14th century. The modern English spelling reflects the fact that in both French and English the word was sometimes spelled with a c, and later also with a u, under the influence of its Late Latin ancestor victulia, meaning “provisions.” The word is now occasionally spelled vittle rather than victual, but in either case the pronunciation is (vtl). > > No dictionary that I’m aware of, dating back to Webster’s 1828 dictionary, admits of an alternate pronunciation. But it is a perfect example of people encountering an unfamiliar word in print and trying dutifully to pronounce it as it is written. Oh, interesting. I know victuals from reading, and I’m also familiar with the word pronounced vittles, but it never occurred to me that they were the same word. The last time i remember that happening is when i learned that debris and d’bree were the same word. > [@Alessan](#): > > I’ve never spoken that word in my life and I don’t intend to start now. Lol. I usually pronounce it “food”. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/117 "2025-06-03T17:13:29Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > Well known as the Boston joke. Apparently not that well known in Boston though. > > I’m still waiting for a someone to open a Middle Eastern restaurant in Mission Hill called “Pita Bent.” That would be very funny. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/118 "2025-06-03T17:22:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Oh, interesting. I know victuals from reading, and I’m also familiar with the word pronounced vittles, but it never occurred to me that they were the same word. The one that hit me in the past year was the written word “segue” and the spoken word “segway.” I had no idea they were the same. All along I’d been using a rogway pronunciation of the written word, based on a vagway belief that it came from French (instead of Italian). Going forward, I’ll avoid its spoken form like the plagway. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/119 "2025-06-03T17:29:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Plenty of places, if you speak a non-prestige dialect. Much of my generation had their original accents kinda stamped out by school, even. Where did you grow up? What income level/social class did you grow up in? What did your accent change to? Where do you now live and what income leve/social class are you now in? ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2025, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111/120 "2025-06-03T17:47:14Z")
Never really noticed that one. One I have noticed is the word “allies” on American broadcasts in WW2. I have never heard it said like that in real life. I don’t _think_ it’s a regionalism, but am not at all positive. [This is an example from NBC](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9xk9GaV0NE&list=PL-2ooNIxvtN0r4ZHvwYBVX34459NZtL1B&index=4&t=32s). Meanwhile the CBS news (video 1 on playlist) with Bob Trout uses the pronunciation familiar to me. Probably not relevant, but the first time I noticed this was listening to old Green Hornet radio show with a news update, and it was broadcast on NBC’s Blue Network. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-decides-proper-pronunciation/1019111.md?page=7)