# Who determines the gender of new nouns in such languages? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 23, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731 "2004-02-23T20:18:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/21 "2004-02-25T12:22:27Z")
So an analogy would be the way english people settle on plural and adjectival forms of words? This is fascinating - I’d never realised it was so obvious to a native speaker, though in retrospect of course it must be. ---
**Author:** ![Shepherdless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85f322/32.png) [@Shepherdless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shepherdless)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/22 "2004-02-25T14:50:57Z")
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is that, in French, masculine words beginning with a vowel are often mistaken for feminine, because of the liaison when preceded by the article un. For example, is it un oreiller or une oreiller, un épisode or une épisode? Then there’s words like oeuvre that are both masculine and feminine. And “circulaire”, which is feminine but certainly sounds masculine. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/23 "2004-02-25T15:02:49Z")
Or, of course, the word “amour” which is masculine in the singular but can be feminine in the plural. Hence, you would say “un bel amour” for “a beautiful love” but when Gainsbourg sings about past loves he says: “chaque jour, mes **amours mortes** n’en finissent pas de mourrir.” The most confusing words are those that are almost always used in the plural, like the two I mentioned earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/24 "2004-02-25T16:47:59Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > **jovan** : Please don’t tell me the French word for testicle is feminine. > > (Ceci n’est pas une smiley.) However, several Spanish words for “penis” are feminine: la verga, la pinga. And one of the words for “breast” is masculine: el seno. I am sure there are other cases. The gender of a noun has has little to do with sex (except in the case of humans and (some) animals.) ---
**Author:** ![seaworthy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@seaworthy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seaworthy)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/25 "2004-02-25T16:58:18Z")
> [@r\_k](#): > > Also on the subject of _avion_, I couldn’t resist this little francophone joke: > > \*Une blonde et son fan se promènent sur le trottoir, la blonde lève les yeux au ciel et dit au fan : “Regarde, une avion !” > > Le fan lui répond aussitôt : “C’est pas **une** avion, c’est **un** avion.” > > La blonde le regarde alors et lui dit : “T’as bien des bons yeux pour voir ça!”\* That’s fuckin hilarious! I’ll have to remember to tell my French class that one tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Skwerl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Skwerl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skwerl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/26 "2004-02-25T19:26:30Z")
> [@seaworthy](#): > > That’s fuckin hilarious! I’ll have to remember to tell my French class that one tonight. I don’t get it. Here’s how I read it: A blonde and her fan (I guess this is some slang?) are taking a walk, and the blonde looks up to the sky and says: “Look, a airplane!” The fan responds immediately: “That’s not a airplane, it’s **an** airplane.” The blonde looks at him and says: “You sure have good eyes to see that!” What’s funny about it? (I’m not advanced with French, so I am probably missing something.) ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/27 "2004-02-25T19:30:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > However, several Spanish words for “penis” are feminine: la verga, la pinga. French: la bite > [@](#): > > And one of the words for “breast” is masculine: el seno. French: le sein **Northern Piper** , your observations on gender rules in France are excellent and very useful, but another exception to the “countries ending in e” rule is (or was) “le Cambodge”. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/28 "2004-02-25T20:09:39Z")
> [@Skwerl](#): > > I don’t get it. Here’s how I read it: > > A blonde and her fan (I guess this is some slang?) are taking a walk, and the blonde looks up to the sky and says: > > “Look, a airplane!” > > The fan responds immediately: “That’s not a airplane, it’s **an** airplane.” > > The blonde looks at him and says: “You sure have good eyes to see that!” > > What’s funny about it? (I’m not advanced with French, so I am probably missing something.) The joke is between _un_ and _une_, i.e. masculine and feminine. He is correcting her grammar, saying “It’s not a [feminine] aeroplane, it’s a [masculine]aeroplane”, but she misunderstands (being a blonde). See now why she thinks he has good eyesight? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skwerl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Skwerl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skwerl)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/29 "2004-02-25T21:43:42Z")
> [@r\_k](#): > > The joke is between _un_ and _une_, i.e. masculine and feminine. He is correcting her grammar, saying “It’s not a [feminine] aeroplane, it’s a [masculine]aeroplane”, but she misunderstands (being a blonde). See now why she thinks he has good eyesight? 😉 No, I got that much of it. That’s why I tried to translate it as saying “a airplane” instead of “an airplane,” so she’s making some small grammatical error in English. I don’t see why she would think that if she could see the plane, her “fan” couldn’t either. I would think even a dumb blonde would expect someone else to be able to see an airplane if she can, too. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/30 "2004-02-25T22:43:00Z")
> [@Skwerl](#): > > No, I got that much of it. That’s why I tried to translate it as saying “a airplane” instead of “an airplane,” so she’s making some small grammatical error in English. I don’t see why she would think that if she could see the plane, her “fan” couldn’t either. I would think even a dumb blonde would expect someone else to be able to see an airplane if she can, too. The question is not seeing the airplane, but seeing whether or not it has a weiner. Are you by any chance blond? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lt180ml](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90db22/32.png) [@lt180ml](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lt180ml)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/31 "2004-02-25T23:51:16Z")
According to my Italian teacher: As the cars became more common, so did the word _automobile_. (Don’t ask why they needed that word, since Italians mostly seem to use the word _la macchina_, or machine, anyway.) No one could agree whether the word was masculine or feminine, so they decided to ask a famous Italian poet what he thought. “Is it dangerous?” he asked. “_Un po._ You get hurt very badly if it hits you.” “Then it’s feminine,” he replied. Likely not true, but funny anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/32 "2004-02-26T00:50:57Z")
Yeah, well explained **Colibri**. I didn’t want to have to spell it out… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Skwerl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Skwerl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skwerl)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/33 "2004-02-26T02:22:16Z")
:smack: I forgot that gender actually refers to gender, too. I’m used to just memorizing them, like le libre…a male book? No, you just remember it’s le. Thanks for the roll eyes, though. ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/34 "2004-02-26T08:42:53Z")
> [@Hari Seldon](#): > > Oh and the one “ion” word that is (supposedly) masculine is “avion” (airplane). One common explanation is that Clement Adler, back in the late 19th century, called his flying machine **A** ppareil **V** olant **I** mitant l’ **O** iseau **N** aturel, and _appareil_ is masculine. Thus the acronym keeps that gender. Can someone confirm or deny that etymology? On the web I find it mainly in English articles, and I haven’t seen it in any dictionary. (But then, my French dictionaries aren’t very good.) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/35 "2004-02-26T11:37:52Z")
When Arabic borrows English words, they’re just about all masculine by default. But when Arabic borrows Italian words, if they’re feminine nouns ending in _-a_, then Arabic borrows them as feminine. For example: Italian _sala_ ‘hall, room’ \> Arabic _sâlah_ (f.). Even though Arabic and Italian are from two different language families, they both have most feminine nouns ending in -_a_. When Arabic and Hebrew borrow from each other, of course, the two language are so closely related, that the genders are imported along with the words. Same goes for, say, Spanish and Italian. When Urdu borrows words from Arabic, it keeps the same gender sometimes, but also weirdly changes the gender sometimes for no known reason, except perhaps that in Urdu -_a_ is a masculine ending. When Urdu borrows nouns from Persian, a completely genderless language, it assigns gender in an apparently random and inexplicable fashion. For example, _dast_ (hand) is taken to be masculine, while _bâzû_ (shoulder) is taken to be feminine. The Urdu language seems to have pulled these genders out of thin air or out of the proverbial butt, since they have nothing that could be seen as a gender marking. But these Persian loanwords were borrowed centuries ago, and the thought processes going on back then may be unrecoverable. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/36 "2004-02-26T12:01:01Z")
> [@Popup](#): > > One common explanation is that Clement Adler, back in the late 19th century, called his flying machine **A** ppareil **V** olant **I** mitant l? **O** iseau **N** aturel, and _appareil_ is masculine. Thus the acronym keeps that gender. According to my sources, you’re correct that Ader coined “avion” but the explanation you gives smells fishy. “Avion” comes from the Latin “avis” (bird). The “rule” about words ending in “ion” being feminine works (probably) only for words where “ion” is preceded by an “s” sound. Hence “pression” and “nation” are feminine while “avion”, “million”, “scorpion”, “espion” and “camion” are masculine. (B.t.w. the avion joke was told in _The Three Amigos_ slightly differently. The amigos spot a plane and Martin Short says: “it’s a mail plane.” You can see where it goes from there.) ---
**Author:** ![Popup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@Popup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Popup)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731/37 "2004-02-26T13:04:56Z")
> [@jovan](#): > > According to my sources, you’re correct that Ader coined “avion” but the explanation you gives smells fishy. “Avion” comes from the Latin “avis” (bird). Thank you! That sounds better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-determines-the-gender-of-new-nouns-in-such-languages/230731.md?page=1)