# Who do you really think is controlling the levers of power in the modern world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770 "2019-07-28T21:37:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/21 "2019-07-29T18:10:07Z")
No way, it’s the Boy Sprouts or the Cattle Mutilators. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/22 "2019-07-29T18:39:57Z")
Monopoly, the game, is a bad analogy. We do not live in a world where everyone starts life with $1,500 and has the same salary. The point of Monopoly is that the bank always wins. Imagine playing a game of Monopoly where one player started the game owning everything built Baltic and Mediterranean, had unlimited access to low interest capital, made $200k for passing Go, and could arbitrarily change rent, and salaries for other players. Also this player pays much less when they land on the tax spaces, and never has to pay for street repair. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/23 "2019-07-29T18:50:54Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > No one is calling the shots. Attributing “the shots” to individual people’s intentions shows a misunderstanding of how sociological processes work. > > The institution we call the free market is calling the shots. > > Go play a game of Monopoly (the Parker Brothers board game), in fact play several rounds of it with your friends. > > Which of the players’ priorities and behaviors are responsible for the amassing of all the wealth in the hands of the winning player at the end? What horribly selfish person is making that happen? > > Oh, it’s the rules of the game… There are forms of power other than economic power. Political power is more influential than economic power. Arguably military power is more important than political power as military power is what is needed to rule or Overthrow a government. If the entire military decides to Overthrow the dictator, then the dictator goes down. Putin is worth $200 billion because he used his political power to obtain economic power. But if the Russian military turn on him, he goes down. It’s ironic that in America the power totem pole seems to be inversed. Instead of military \> political \> economic power we are the opposite. Economic \> political \> military. Of course in most wealthy and developed nations the military is under civilian rule for a good reason, to prevent coups. But still, the US seems like an outlier where wealth is more influential than political power. Either way, to your point the rules of the game can be changed. If you enact progressive taxation, estate taxes, wealth taxes, etc as well as laws to grow labor unions, make housing affordable, higher minimum wage, etc then wealth inequality goes down. The rules of the ‘game’ can be changed so that more wealth and power accrues either at the top or the bottom. The issue is that in America both parties enforce rules that ensure wealth and power go upward (the gop wholeheartedly does it and the dems half heartily do it, but they both do). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/24 "2019-07-29T18:53:15Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > No one is calling the shots. Attributing “the shots” to individual people’s intentions shows a misunderstanding of how sociological processes work. > > The institution we call the free market is calling the shots. > > Go play a game of Monopoly (the Parker Brothers board game), in fact play several rounds of it with your friends. > > Which of the players’ priorities and behaviors are responsible for the amassing of all the wealth in the hands of the winning player at the end? What horribly selfish person is making that happen? > > Oh, it’s the rules of the game… There are forms of power other than economic power. Political power is more influential than economic power. Arguably military power is more important than political power as military power is what is needed to rule or Overthrow a government. If the entire military decides to Overthrow the dictator, then the dictator goes down. Putin is worth $200 billion because he used his political power to obtain economic power. But if the Russian military turn on him, he goes down. It’s ironic that in America the power totem pole seems to be inversed. Instead of military \> political \> economic power we are the opposite. Economic \> political \> military. Of course in most wealthy and developed nations the military is under civilian rule for a good reason, to prevent coups. But still, the US seems like an outlier where wealth is more influential than political power. Either way, to your point the rules of the game can be changed. If you enact progressive taxation, estate taxes, wealth taxes, etc as well as laws to grow labor unions, make housing affordable, higher minimum wage, combat racial inequality, auto enroll people into private retirement accounts, match retirement account investments with public funds, invest in education, etc then wealth inequality goes down. The rules of the ‘game’ can be changed so that more wealth and power accrues either at the top or the bottom. The issue is that in America both parties enforce rules that ensure wealth and power go upward (the gop wholeheartedly does it and the dems half heartily do it, but they both do). ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/25 "2019-07-29T18:55:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Higher level social structures are _emergent_, in the same way the behaviour of a bird flock or an anthill is emergent. No bird or group of birds is in control of the flock, or influencing the flock to behave in a certain way. Rather, each bird simply flies according to its own internal rules, and flocking behaviour emerges from the interactions between them. True, but to continue the analogy to the breaking point, while most of us are sparrows whose individual actions subtly shift the emergent effect, some are hawks whose individual actions can have [dramatic effects](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vneQ0ACnBgI). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/26 "2019-07-29T19:23:50Z")
> [@l0k1](#): > > Monopoly, the game, is a bad analogy. We do not live in a world where everyone starts life with $1,500 and has the same salary. The point of Monopoly is that the bank always wins. Imagine playing a game of Monopoly where one player started the game owning everything built Baltic and Mediterranean, had unlimited access to low interest capital, made $200k for passing Go, and could arbitrarily change rent, and salaries for other players. Also this player pays much less when they land on the tax spaces, and never has to pay for street repair. Slightly different but not meaningfully so. The point remains: the outcome that you see is a product of the rules of the game, which in this case include having different starting points. (You don’t, by any remote stretch of the imagination, think that I was _defending_ the status quo, do you? Or are you one of those who absolutely need a Culprit in order to argue that how things are is not fair?) ---
**Author:** ![Mrs\_McGinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6bbea6/32.png) [@Mrs\_McGinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mrs_McGinty)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2019, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/27 "2019-07-29T23:48:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Higher level social structures are _emergent_, in the same way the behaviour of a bird flock or an anthill is emergent. No bird or group of birds is in control of the flock, or influencing the flock to behave in a certain way. Rather, each bird simply flies according to its own internal rules, and flocking behaviour emerges from the interactions between them. > > Society is a complex adaptive system. This is true, and should be the starting point for any discussion about how power works, at least where pluralistic representative democracies are concerned. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Individuals have instincts, goals, and rules of behaviour. When individuals interact with each other by the millions in a social system governed by those rules, culture emerges. This is also true, but it would be a mistake to focus only on individuals. Institutions, organisations, movements, and interest/identity groups are not merely aggregations of their individual members. They are also actors in their own right, with their own internal logic and power dynamic. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If you choose different rules, you change the way the system evolves. Unfortunately, you cannot predict the way in which the system evolves or what it will become, because the system is inherently complex, chaotic, and unpredictable. It’s entirely possible to predict the ways in which a system will respond to a given change. It happens all the time. Thus are elections won and fortunes made. It can certainly seem as if all predictions are bullshit. Firstly, because nobody is ever completely right. And secondly because the times when people are wrong tend to be more salient. In general, we attract much less credit for being right than we attract scorn for being wrong. But, for the most part, when power takes action the intended changes are achieved to a reasonable degree of reliability. Improve safety standards and fewer people die in accidents. Increase education budgets and you’ll get a more productive workforce. Cut taxes on a group and that group will have more power. And the same is true for those broader social and cultural matters. Movements can change the things they want to change, albeit never to the degree they wish. The civil rights movement of the 1960s successfully changed the culture in ways it intended. As did the neo-liberal movement of the 1980s. The trick for a politician is to find a wave that’s ready to break, and bring enough people with you to ride it through to real, substantive change. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/28 "2019-07-30T00:19:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > > [@Oedipus](#): > > > > My personal theory is that the McKenzie Consulting group is at the center of this circle. Their corporate culture, shameless advocacy for the status quo, and promotion of the worst excesses of capitalism seem the infest each thing it touches… > > “Mckinsey” No, the OP had it right. The Canadian McKenzies are the real power pulling all those levers at places like McKinsey & Company, Goldman Sachs and so forth. Everyone thinks the Canadians are nice, polite and harmless. But they’re secretly controlling the world. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/29 "2019-07-30T02:21:56Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Everyone thinks the Canadians are nice, polite and harmless. But they’re secretly controlling the world. Well they’re not exactly making it look like they’ve got an idea where it’s going, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/30 "2019-07-30T02:29:12Z")
That just goes to show how devious they are. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/31 "2019-07-30T05:16:01Z")
The Illuminati. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/32 "2019-07-30T08:07:54Z")
I was recently repeatedly assured that girls run this mutha. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/33 "2019-07-30T11:29:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > No, the OP had it right. The Canadian McKenzies are the real power pulling all those levers at places like McKinsey & Company, Goldman Sachs and so forth. Everyone thinks the Canadians are nice, polite and harmless. But they’re secretly controlling the world. **Now** I understand global warming! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/34 "2019-07-30T13:09:13Z")
> [@Mrs\_McGinty](#): > > It’s entirely possible to predict the ways in which a system will respond to a given change. It happens all the time. Thus are elections won and fortunes made. At best it’s educated guesswork, and if I had to venture a guess, I’d say that the ability to predict anything concrete is right up there with tea leaves, entrails and chicken bones. I mean, we can deduce SOME of the rules that govern the emergent behavior that **Sam Stone** is talking about, but only in very specific circumstances. Otherwise, the system is too large with too many actors to accurately predict much of anything. It’s like the weather- it’s the product of a bunch of local phenomena combined with larger-scale regional and global things. And it can be predicted to some degree of accuracy, within very vague parameters, and within very short time frames. And with some of the world’s most powerful supercomputing resources applied to it. Emergent behavior is like that- we can confidently say that the swarm of bugs is going to avoid the flaming tree, but we can’t predict with any certainty what else they’ll do. I’m not sure why it’s even an argument- it’s clearly an emergent behavior, and does what it’s going to do. If it was, economics would be less contentious and more akin to math or a hard science like chemistry. Same with politics. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/35 "2019-08-06T18:45:25Z")
Systems manage systems. It doesn’t matter as much as anyone thinks who is “in charge”. The system needs some people to be in charge and they are surprisingly interchangeable, almost as much as the rest of us. What does the system want? It just wants to keep existing. It re-calibrates whenever there’s a disturbance, to absorb that disturbance and turn it into more system. And more about cybernetics that I don’t understand, personally, but I’ve sure seen how it works. You can see it at the family level, at the local politics/economics level, and all the way on up. The real reason climate change, which will kill us and all our systems, isn’t being addressed, for example, is that there is no function in the system to address anything long-term, except via disaster, when change is forced. The system doesn’t think or plan, it just continually reacts to maintain itself. Unless it’s the Lizard People after all. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/36 "2019-08-07T13:55:30Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > …One of their interests that they do have in common, however, is that they do not benefit by trying to increase the living standards of the people at the bottom of the economic ladder. … If they weren’t so short-sighted, they would realize that a strong middle class consumer base is needed for them to make money. There are not enough oligarchs and despots to buy each others’ product if the masses don’t have enough income. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/37 "2019-08-07T14:01:41Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > If they weren’t so short-sighted, they would […] history dot txt. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/38 "2019-08-07T14:10:36Z")
If only someone wrote a book on this subject… Standard reading for most macro-econ 101 courses, Thomas Dye’s [Who’s Running America](https://www.amazon.com/Whos-Running-America-Thomas-Dye/dp/1612055559/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=153649687407&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9019592&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=3478607292773251382&hvtargid=aud-676677759524%3Akwd-756613715&hydadcr=22561_9479780&keywords=who%27s+running+america&qid=1565186730&s=gateway&sr=8-1) is up to it’s 8th edition, last updated during the Obama years. He breaks it down to the corporate elites, the media moguls, and politicians. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/39 "2019-08-07T14:19:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > No, the OP had it right. The Canadian McKenzies are the real power pulling all those levers at places like McKinsey & Company, Goldman Sachs and so forth. Everyone thinks the Canadians are nice, polite and harmless. But they’re secretly controlling the world. I, for one, welcome our Touque-wearing overlords from the Great White North. Someone get me some backbacon and beers! ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770/40 "2019-08-07T16:54:17Z")
Are we USAians too unworthy for our Canadian overlords to share some of that sweet health care? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-do-you-really-think-is-controlling-the-levers-of-power-in-the-modern-world/837770.md?page=3)