# Who does the NRA really represent, overzealous gun owners, or gun manufacturers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 23, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510 "2013-04-23T17:38:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/1 "2013-04-23T17:38:10Z")
In the ‘reasonable conversation about guns’ thread, **BobLibDem** said the following: > [@The "reasonable conversation about guns" that anti-gun Internet people want](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-reasonable-conversation-about-guns-that-anti-gun-internet-people-want/656334/58): > > I hate to break it to you gun lovers, but the NRA does not represent you. They represent weapons manufacturers. I have heard that a number of times from people on the left since December. What I’ve yet to see is any convincing evidence of this. If the NRA has 4 million members paying $25 annual dues, they get $100 million from their membership. Do they get enough additional funding from gun manufacturers to tip the scales? It’s possible, but I’d sure like to see some evidence. And from out here, much as I dislike it, the NRA and its members seem to be in a very effective and intense symbiotic relationship. Sure, the NRA emotionally manipulates its members, but the members seem to like the manipulation, and they keep calling their Congresscritters. I don’t see anything going on with the NRA that really requires a major role by gun manufacturers to explain it. The intensity of the pro-gun crowd suffices. I’m sure the gun manufacturers don’t have any problem with what the NRA does, but I don’t see any evidence that they’re the ones calling the tune. I could be wrong, but if so, I’d really like to see some evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/2 "2013-04-23T17:43:23Z")
NRA membership hovers around 4 million. Around 47% of Americans own at least one firearm [Cite](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx) so that’s around 147 million people. You’d think if more people supported an organization more than 2% would join it. ETA: That’s 47% of households have at least 1 firearm, still that constitutes a massive amount of gun owners and makes my point. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/3 "2013-04-23T17:53:57Z")
It’s my impression that the NRA has, in recent years, essentially moved away from what their membership wants toward doing more and more lobbying on behalf of gun and ammunition manufacturers. Many members are not really aware of that… Yet. The thing is, if they get a large chunk of money from manufacturers, that far outweighs the $25 they get from Joe NRA member. They can afford to [lose a member here or there](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/adolphus-busch-iv-nra_n_3112750.html). They COULD NOT afford to lose the chunk of money from the manufacturers all at once. So really, it is not about how much money they currently get from members - it’s about what the NRA is currently doing with that money - are they doing things the members want? Or doing things that the manufacturers want? And are the majority of members even aware of the kind of lobbying the NRA is doing on a day-to-day level? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/4 "2013-04-23T17:56:05Z")
I posted this just a few weeks ago in another thread. It was summarily handwaved away. > [@](#): > > In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence. > > While that is still part of the organization’s core function, today less than half of the NRA’s revenues come from program fees and membership dues. > > The bulk of the group’s money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources. > **[How The Gun Industry Funnels Tens Of Millions Of Dollars To The NRA](https://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1)** > > The gun industry's financial support for the NRA raises questions about influence and accountability in politics. Note that some companies give a portion of each sale to the NRA, such as Crimson Trace, Taurus, and Sturm Rugar. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/5 "2013-04-23T17:56:52Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > NRA membership hovers around 4 million. Around 47% of Americans own at least one firearm [Cite](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx) so that’s around 147 million people. > > You’d think if more people supported an organization more than 2% would join it. > > ETA: That’s 47% of households have at least 1 firearm, still that constitutes a massive amount of gun owners and makes my point. What point? That NRA members are a small subset of gun owners? Not everybody who has a gun pays any attention at all to politics, and not everybody’s a joiner. (Mensa has only 110,000 members worldwide – its potential membership (by definition) is 2% of the global population, or 140 million.) Now, it **would** be significant if there were some rival and more rational, less gun-control-averse organization of gun owners and its membership outnumbered the NRA’s, but that is not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/6 "2013-04-23T17:58:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What point? That NRA members are a small subset of gun owners? Not everybody who has a gun pays any attention at all to politics, and not everybody’s a joiner. (Mensa has only 110,000 members worldwide – its potential membership (by definition) is 2% of the global population, or 140 million.) And who does Mensa claim to speak for? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/7 "2013-04-23T18:12:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I posted this just a few weeks ago in another thread. It was summarily handwaved away. > > [This Is How the Gun Industry Funds the NRA - Business Insider](http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1) > > Note that some companies give a portion of each sale to the NRA, such as Crimson Trace, Taurus, and Sturm Rugar. OK, I see from your link that the NRA has derived at least 13% of its income in recent years from gun manufacturers through ads and sponsorships. Plus an undetermined amount through the donated $1 per gun royalties from some manufacturers that might add another few percent to that. That’s more than nothing, but it’s a long way from substantiating a “gun industry controls the NRA” claim. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/8 "2013-04-23T18:24:21Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > NRA membership hovers around 4 million. Around 47% of Americans own at least one firearm [Cite](http://www.gallup.com/poll/150353/self-reported-gun-ownership-highest-1993.aspx) so that’s around 147 million people. > > You’d think if more people supported an organization more than 2% would join it. What marginal utility do they get by joining? How many people listen to NPR without contributing, and they need the funds to stay alive, not lobby! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/9 "2013-04-23T18:44:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > OK, I see from your link that the NRA has derived at least 13% of its income in recent years from gun manufacturers through ads and sponsorships. Plus an undetermined amount through the donated $1 per gun royalties from some manufacturers that might add another few percent to that. > > That’s more than nothing, but it’s a long way from substantiating a “gun industry controls the NRA” claim. Where did you get that number? It’s not at all consistent with the info in the link. For example: The link says about 10% (20.9 million) comes from ads. It says that up to 52.6 million in some years has come from direct contributions from gun manufacturers and corporate allies. That alone would be approximately 25%, and cumulatively 35%. It then lists unspecified amounts coming from portions of individual sales. It then lists unspecified amounts coming from industry donations to the NRA Foundation. 13%? That’s bullshit. Why do people engage this particular link in such a silly fashion? If you don’t like it, find some other evidence to help flesh out the details. I found it through a quick internet search, but it can’t be the only info out there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/10 "2013-04-23T19:05:34Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > If the NRA has 4 million members paying $25 annual dues, they get $100 million from their membership. Do they get enough additional funding from gun manufacturers to tip the scales? It’s possible, but I’d sure like to see some evidence. I paid $750 for a Lifetime membership (now it’s $1000). After the latest discussions here, I’ve decided to become a Patron - an additional $1500. I offer this to show that it’s not as simple as saying N members multiplied by $M membership fee. There are levels. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/11 "2013-04-23T19:13:33Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It says that up to 52.6 million in some years has come from direct contributions from gun manufacturers and corporate allies. That alone would be approximately 25%, and cumulatively 35%. Your link doesn’t say that. It says that up to 52.6 million has come in direct contributions **since 2005**. That’s about $6.6 million per year, or ~3% of its 2010 revenue. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/12 "2013-04-23T19:18:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I paid $750 for a Lifetime membership (now it’s $1000). After the latest discussions here, I’ve decided to become a Patron - an additional $1500. [Sorry to hear that.](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/04/nra_magazine_covers.php) > [@](#): > > I offer this to show that it’s not as simple as saying N members multiplied by $M membership fee. There are levels. Tru dat. But without evidence of how much that affects the NRA’s bottom line, including that weakens rather than strengthens my argument. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/13 "2013-04-23T19:20:29Z")
Another non-partisan, middle of the road “Have you stopped beating your wife yet” threads. Glad we haven’t had one of those lately. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/14 "2013-04-23T19:20:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I paid $750 for a Lifetime membership (now it’s $1000). After the latest discussions here, I’ve decided to become a Patron - an additional $1500. > > I offer this to show that it’s not as simple as saying N members multiplied by $M membership fee. There are levels. And you continue to hit new ones. Do you think that extra $1500 will give you any more of the NRA’s ear than a regular membership would? Nobody at the top levels of the NRA know who you(or any other $1500’ers) are, because you don’t contribute enough to catch their attention. If any of the gun or ammo manufacturors said, “You’ll get your usual if you kick Bricker out right now” there would be a cancelation notice in the mail before he left the building. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/15 "2013-04-23T19:26:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Your link doesn’t say that. It says that up to 52.6 million has come in direct contributions **since 2005**. That’s about $6.6 million per year, or ~3% of its 2010 revenue. Ah, I see what you’re saying. That isn’t very clear. I do note that the article does state very clearly that less than half of the NRA revenue comes from membership fees. It ought to be pretty easy to find out how much (in terms of dollar amount) comes from membership fees, and compare that to the total revenue. Until someone can provide clarifying detail, I note that the article is very clear about the fact that the majority of their revenue does not come from membership fees. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/16 "2013-04-23T19:29:55Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Another non-partisan, middle of the road “Have you stopped beating your wife yet” threads. Glad we haven’t had one of those lately. Do you know the difference between anti-gun and anti-NRA? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/17 "2013-04-23T19:32:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And who does Mensa claim to speak for? Nobody, including Mensans. It’s just a social club. No lobby, no agenda. Well, other than that long-range global-domination plan, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/18 "2013-04-23T19:36:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nobody, including Mensans. It’s just a social club. No lobby, no agenda. Well, other than that long-range global-domination plan, y’know. Then the percentage of intelligent people that belong to Mensa doesn’t really matter because they don’t claim to represent anybody. The NRA, on the other hand, claims to represent who, again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/19 "2013-04-23T19:37:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Your link doesn’t say that. It says that up to 52.6 million has come in direct contributions **since 2005**. That’s about $6.6 million per year, or ~3% of its 2010 revenue. Actually, not even that. Here’s a quote of what it says: > [@](#): > > Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it [the NRA]… $52.6M is the upper estimate, but there seems to be some very large error bars associated with this data point. I’m also suspicious that the lower limit is exactly $20M but the upper limit is $52.6M. Without knowing anything else, the wise move would be to take the average and set it at $36.3M. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510/20 "2013-04-23T19:42:28Z")
Okay, I just went to their 2010 IRS 990 form. Of a total revenue of 227,811,279, member dues were 100,531,465. Program fees were an additional 6,552,336. So the article is accurate in stating that less than half of their revenues come from membership dues and fees. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-does-the-nra-really-represent-overzealous-gun-owners-or-gun-manufacturers/656510.md?page=2)