# Who has a better quality of life: A farm animal or a wild animal? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 7, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565 "2021-04-07T18:21:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/41 "2021-04-08T22:04:10Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > What’s the difference between a cage and a pen? +1 on @running_coach’s examples A cage is typically fully enclosed with the aim of restraining or constraining typically a single animal. The purpose usually require heavier duty materials based on physical size of the animal. There is a continuum between a pen and a paddock but they are typically fenced with appropriate materials, the animal may be singular but more usually in groups and can move within the fenced area. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/42 "2021-04-08T23:15:08Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > They’ve all shown strong preferences for entertainment A Facebook friend says they recently bought a xylophone for their chickens to play with. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/43 "2021-04-08T23:20:42Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > The first of your images is of sow stalls. > Sows pre partum are moved into these cages and stay there until their litter is weaned, so maybe a couple of weeks because sows aren’t the most attentive mothers and if in a free range will lie on their newborn piglets (not deliberately, but they just don’t care) and crush/suffocate them. How common is this? Fwiw, I’ve seen several sows with piglets who were unrestrained, in large pens. And when momma moves, the piglets scramble out of her way. Then all run back and latch on to nurse. (Piglets appear a hell of a lot hungrier than kittens, which are the other animal I’ve often seen nursing as a litter.) ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/44 "2021-04-08T23:29:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If you want cruelty-free, then look for cruelty-free. With eggs, buy certified organic. That’s the only label with strict meaning. “Cruelty-free” is as meaningless as “free range” and “natural”. Certified organic egg producers are required to give their hens specific and generous amounts of room. Nobody else is. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/45 "2021-04-08T23:32:06Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A Facebook friend says they recently bought a xylophone for their chickens to play with. My Head Just Exploded ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/46 "2021-04-08T23:49:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And when momma moves, the piglets scramble out of her way. Yes, but that’s the older ones who have learned that when Mum is going to lie down, get the fuck out of the way. Even then if they get caught on the wrong side of the ruck they could be in trouble. The issue is mainly around newborns who aren’t as agile and don’t realise their biggest life-threat is their own mother. This [cite](https://www.thepigsite.com/articles/overlaying#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20most%20frequently,cent%20of%20all%20piglet%20deaths.) states that up to 50% of piglet losses can be due to overlaying even with farrowing crates ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/47 "2021-04-09T00:09:18Z")
Well, but how many piglets are lost? If it’s 50% of a tiny number, it may not matter. And if it’s a high number with farrowing crates, is it that much lower than without? I guess I’ve read that piglets tend to be crushed against the side of the cage, and that if the pig had enough room they aren’t generally killed by the mother rolling over. But i am not a pig farmer. (I do think farrowing crates look horrible, though.) ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/48 "2021-04-09T00:23:41Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, but how many piglets are lost? If it’s 50% of a tiny number, it may not matter. Average total piglet mortality (i.e. stillbirths + live-born deaths) ranges from [16-20%]([Improving piglet survival](https://www.freefarrowing.org/research/improving-piglet-survival/#:~:text=Average%20total%20piglet%20mortality%20(i.e.,every%20litter%20die%20pre%2Dweaning.)) ie two piglets in every litter die pre-weaning. I think most intensive pig operations would agree with you about crates. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/49 "2021-04-09T00:25:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > And if it’s a high number with farrowing crates, is it that much lower than without? No, overlaying mortality is much higher _without_ the crates … that’s precisely why they are used. edit: Sorry misread your question. Conventional thinking is that crates reduce losses by half to 2/3rd ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/50 "2021-04-09T00:48:27Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > we have to do so with objective knowledge as to what life is like, both in the wild and domesticity, and without letting our beliefs get in the way. The objective knowledge we can try to gain. “Without letting our beliefs get in the way” is to some extent not possible. Some of the existing ‘objective knowledge’ has been gathered by people who believe that other animals are automatons; or, at most, only care (as has been said in this thread) whether they’re hungry or in significant pain. It’s harder to gain ‘objective knowledge’ about individual friendships between cows, for instance, though a lot of livestock farmers do see them. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > What’s the difference between a cage and a pen? That’s meant as a serious question. If we’re talking about chickens in modern large operations, it’s not so much the difference between a cage and a pen, as the difference between a large space inside a barn and the same space filled with a lot of individual cages, each holding several chickens, who generally have no way to get away from each other and no room to run or even to walk more than a few steps. The large space inside the barn does better allow individual chickens to avoid other individual chickens, and allows them to move around somewhat better; but they may not have any more space per chicken allotted to them than the birds kept in cages do or did. Some of those large barns claim to have outdoor access – but the “outdoor access” may be a couple of small openings in a large barn, opening out to a concrete-floored fenced porch not large enough to hold all the chickens in the barn even if they all saw a reason to bother working their way out through the small access openings. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > A Facebook friend says they recently bought a xylophone for their chickens to play with I’d like to hear that! I also think I’d like your friends. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Certified organic egg producers are required to give their hens specific and generous amounts of room. Nobody else is. Um, well. In the USA we’re trying to get the USDA to enforce the livestock handling sections of the standards; sometimes it’s kind of an uphill battle. [Cornucopia](https://www.cornucopia.org/)’s got some pretty good scorecards. There are also organizations certifying humane livestock raising standards; they don’t all have the same standards as each other. An operation checked by one of these should, as I said, be naming that organization on their label, and customers can then go check into the particular organization. > [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Conventional thinking is that crates reduce losses by half to 2/3rd Compared to what other kinds of housing? and does it differ by breed of pig? ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/51 "2021-04-09T01:32:31Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Compared to what other kinds of housing? and does it differ by breed of pig? Compared to farrowing in pens. Determining cause of death is more problematic with pigs raised outdoors. You may not even find the carcase. There are really only three breeds Landrace, Large White and Duroc used in intensive operations. Am sure there would be studies of propensity to overlay but I don’t know anything definitive. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/52 "2021-04-09T02:23:32Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Certified organic egg producers are required to give their hens specific and generous amounts of room. All “certified organic” requires is organic feed and “access to the outdoors”. It doesn’t specify how much of the outdoors. I mean, I guess that’s an improvement over typical conditions, but there’s still a lot left unsaid there. You could still have an indoor pen the size of fifty chickens, containing fifty chickens, and with a door to an outside cage big enough for two more. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/53 "2021-04-09T02:51:43Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Certified organic egg producers are required to give their hens specific and generous amounts of room. Nobody else is. There was a case in Australia of a commercial layer operation who started up as premium free range. Hens were given an outside area well in excess to the standards. Their outlets featured footage of hens fossicking in long grass amongst an orchard. They promoted that the birds had access to this Iliad 12 hours per day. That the intensely rich colour of their eggs was a direct result of being free range. Tommy was featured walking about his flock looking like a genuine hayseed with a Anatolian Shephard as guard dog. But Tommy usually wore Armani. He added synthetic yolk pigments to the feed at 10x the usual commercial rates and the gates from the laying shed to the orchard were only open from 6pm to 6 am when the hens were roosting in the shed. The only time the birds actually foraged was when he got a tip-off of an inspection. When he did get rumbled he argued that he was free range farming eggs to the precise letter of the statutes. He got a bond with an agreement to do better in the future. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/54 "2021-04-09T03:01:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > All “certified organic” requires is organic feed and “access to the outdoors”. > ## [§205.239 Livestock living conditions](https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=ee66762cabfe57ea87ee378dc4332c7d&mc=true&node=se7.3.205_1239&rgn=div8). > > (a) The producer of an organic livestock operation must establish and maintain year-round livestock living conditions which accommodate the health and natural behavior of animals, including: > > (1) Year-round access for all animals to the outdoors, shade, shelter, exercise areas, fresh air, clean water for drinking, and direct sunlight, suitable to the species, its stage of life, the climate, and the environment: Except, that, animals may be temporarily denied access to the outdoors in accordance with §§205.239(b) and (c). Yards, feeding pads, and feedlots may be used to provide ruminants with access to the outdoors during the non-grazing season and supplemental feeding during the grazing season. Yards, feeding pads, and feedlots shall be large enough to allow all ruminant livestock occupying the yard, feeding pad, or feedlot to feed simultaneously without crowding and without competition for food. Continuous total confinement of any animal indoors is prohibited. Continuous total confinement of ruminants in yards, feeding pads, and feedlots is prohibited. – et considerably cetera. Enforcement, as I said, may be another issue. Currently the USDA is in charge of this, which poses some problems – they’re not used to an ‘industry’ clamoring loudly for _more_ regulation. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/55 "2021-04-09T05:01:24Z")
A bit of anecdotal evidence from todays news > **['Deep shock' at Sydney Zoo after beloved chimp Mogli's sudden death](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-09/sydney-zoo-staff-in-shock-after-chimpanzee-dies/100058118)** > > Sydney Zoo is closed to the public temporarily this morning and an investigation is launched after the sudden death of a chimpanzee named Mogli. The connection with the OP is the following paragraph: > It’s the second animal to die at the zoo in less than 12 months, after a three-year-old giraffe succumbed to a gut illness in June last year. Not sure how many species and individuals are housed by Sydney Zoo (note this is not Taronga Zoo) but were these animals out in the wild, I suspect that a lot more than 2 would have died of natural causes inc predation in a year. Doesn’t answer the question about quality of life, indeed if that is quantifiable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/56 "2021-04-09T05:06:33Z")
Actually most wild animals dont live longer. Animal sin captivity live longer. A house cat lives twice as long on average as a outdoor cat does. A milk cow or a famr horse has a long life. Now yes, some farm animals are slaughtered early for their meat- those have a shorter but happier life. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/57 "2021-04-09T05:08:56Z")
Yes, this is more or less reflect the situation. Some farm animals live a very long and happy life. Others live a short life. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/58 "2021-04-09T05:12:59Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > There are really only three breeds Landrace, Large White and Duroc used in intensive operations. We need more [Berkshires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkshire_pig)! Landrace and Yorkshires are too damn lean and lean pork is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/59 "2021-04-09T05:18:12Z")
Dairy live to a average of 5 or 6. True, dairy are only about 10% or so of all cattle. Then we have a small handful of oxen and bulls for breeding. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565/60 "2021-04-09T05:26:35Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > I don’t think you’ve ever been on a livestock farm. I have lived on a farm for while. Now sure it wasnt a feedlot of factory farm. but we treated the animals are nice as possible- until it was time to kill them, and even then the death was as fast and painless as possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-better-quality-of-life-a-farm-animal-or-a-wild-animal/939565.md?page=4)