# Who has a right to a "homeland"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 16, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186 "2012-11-16T14:02:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/21 "2012-11-17T21:13:21Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > I sometimes wonder if the lack of a deep cultural identity is the flaw in colonial societies such as the US, Australia, and NZ. We (colonialists) are genuinely bewildered by the strong enduring protests of the unlucky natives. Surely they should be grateful to us - guns, blankets, Christianity, measles - what’s not to like?? Our ancestors packed up and left their homelands for good. What’s bewildering, if anything, is what the big deal is? Homeland? What’s that? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/22 "2012-11-17T22:44:46Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I was talking about the Romas (Gypsies) not the Romans. . . . Do they have a specific area they desire for their homeland? Would they all accept moving there, or would there be dissenters who favor other approaches? (100% acceptance is hardly necessary; a great many Jews would never choose to move to Israel.) Could it be made to work? Is it a heartfelt desire among many? ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/23 "2012-11-18T00:04:22Z")
A homeland is not indistinguishable from a random patch of same sized land somewhere else. When people have lived somewhere for generations they will have to some extent or other changed that land, buildings, roads and paths, fields, cultivated trees etc. If some other buggers come along, kick them out and either reap the benefits or destroy it. Olive trees, for example take fifty years from planting to bearing fruit, then with care and pruning they can live hundreds of years. Who wants to give up that kind of heritage without a fight? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/24 "2012-11-18T00:20:03Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > . . . Olive trees, for example take fifty years from planting to bearing fruit . . . Brief highjack, but is this always so? My dad planted an olive tree in 1955, and it was certainly heavy with fruit by 1965. It wasn’t planted as a seed, of course, but as a shoot. I’ll plant a new shoot this weekend…and get back to you in ten years… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/25 "2012-11-18T04:20:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Brief highjack, but is this always so? My dad planted an olive tree in 1955, and it was certainly heavy with fruit by 1965. It wasn’t planted as a seed, of course, but as a shoot. > > I’ll plant a new shoot this weekend…and get back to you in ten years… 🙂 A BBC weatherman has planted a grove in anticipation of global warming, ISTR he was talking about his grandchildren harvesting the fruit. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/26 "2012-11-18T04:21:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None of that has a thing to do with “deserves”. Perhaps you’d be so kind as to explain how we should determine who gets to live where. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/27 "2012-11-18T04:27:09Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I was talking about the Romas (Gypsies) not the Romans. 😛 > > As for the rest, I was asking the poster I quoted if his position wasn’t equivalent to "might makes right"and if he would apply the same reasonning to Chinese invading Australia tomorrow, or to the conquistadores when they first seized American territory, not to old grievances. IOW, for how long a group has to be able to hold on a territory before it should be considered a “fait accompli”? I’ll ask the same question of you that I asked of Der Trihs. But as an added question, I’ll also ask everyone to define what they mean by the term homeland. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/28 "2012-11-18T04:28:17Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > Nobody. Throw open the borders. All of them. Oh, yeah, that’s gonna work. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/29 "2012-11-18T21:35:43Z")
Thanks for the discussion, all. I get confused when people speak as though they have some inherent right to some particular piece of land - especially when someone else has been living there for some time. It also confuses me to hear the US opine how other nations ought to act towards their ethnic minorities, as tho such relations were dictated by some universal ethical principles rather than political realities. ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/30 "2012-11-19T03:13:34Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Thanks for the discussion, all. I get confused when people speak as though they have some inherent right to some particular piece of land - especially when someone else has been living there for some time. It certainly isn’t easy to understand because to do so, we need to learn in depth about the grievance, and what solutions there might be. Usually a land has been invaded, occupied, or colonised by people with superior technology. The locals get killed or shoved aside, or even transported to another place. Think of the Trail of Tears. Realistically, governments are the only entity which can return large areas to provide a homeland (however we define that). Governments are not going to move other people off land to achieve it. Manhattan isn’t going to be returned to Amerindians. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > It also confuses me to hear the US opine how other nations ought to act towards their ethnic minorities, as tho such relations were dictated by some universal ethical principles rather than political realities. Don’t you think the United States should uphold ethical principles? ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/31 "2012-11-19T03:21:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None of that has a thing to do with “deserves”. Sounds like you are getting the point. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/32 "2012-11-19T13:04:40Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Don’t you think the United States should uphold ethical principles? Sure I do. But I’m not sure all of us would agree as to which ethical principles are “universal”, and what results such principles would dictate in each specific case. Moreover, I think reality is somewhat messy - it might be more accurate to say that my preference is that government action be informed by ethical principals, rather than being dictated by them. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/33 "2012-11-19T16:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Do they deserve this? Mostly, yes. Why? Who decided that they “deserved” it? What criteria were used? ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/34 "2012-11-19T18:49:02Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Or, taking your Amerindians example, does it means that as soon as Spaniards or British nexcomers had kicked their ass and had the means to hold on the conquered territory, it was their homeland and not anymore the natives’ ? The Amerinds example isn’t clear either, since most Amerinds displaced other Amerinds. For example, should Michigan belong to the Chippewa, who invaded, displaced, slaughtered, and enslaved the Ottowa who preceded them? (Of course one wonders who was there before the Ottowas.) > [@John\_Mace](#): > > None of those is a “homeland”. Why not? What’s your definition of a homeland? ---
**Author:** ![ed\_anger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bbce88/32.png) [@ed\_anger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ed_anger)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/35 "2012-11-19T19:40:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Oh, yeah, that’s gonna work. :rolleyes: That’s where we are heading, eventually, one would hope (like the EU dissolving borders)\>. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/36 "2012-11-19T19:43:37Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None of that has a thing to do with “deserves”. Yes it does. (2)Russia deserves your land because they can kill you and anyone else currently living there. As well as: 3 China 4 India 5 Germany 6 France 7 Japan 8 Turkey 9 Brazil 10 Great Britain 11 Italy 12 South Korea 13 Indonesia 14 Mexico 15 Canada 16 Iran 17 Egypt 18 North Korea 19 Spain 20 Pakistan 21 Australia 22 Saudi Arabia 23 Thailand 24 Argentina 25 Sweden 26 Israel 27 Greece 28 Taiwan 29 Syria 30 Philippines 31 Poland 32 Ukraine 33 Norway 34 Iraq 35 Libya 36 Venezuela 37 Lebanon 38 Nepal 39 Afghanistan 40 Cuba ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/37 "2012-11-20T23:42:12Z")
> [@ed\_anger](#): > > That’s where we are heading, eventually, one would hope (like the EU dissolving borders)\>. Ptooey. Human beings are territorial, ethnocentric and tribalistic. However disturbing that fact may be to you, it remains a fact. You can sing “Kumbaya” as long as you want, it won’t change human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/38 "2012-11-26T06:23:06Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > . . . Olive trees, for example take fifty years from planting to bearing fruit . . . > [@Trinopus](#): > > Brief highjack, but is this always so? My dad planted an olive tree in 1955, and it was certainly heavy with fruit by 1965. It wasn’t planted as a seed, of course, but as a shoot. . . . > [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > A BBC weatherman has planted a grove in anticipation of global warming, ISTR he was talking about his grandchildren harvesting the fruit. I spent some of this weekend looking this up in various gardening books. Surprisingly, most of them didn’t say anything on the subject. I found a note in a 1959 Encyclopedia Americana, that olives begin bearing after four to eight years, and reach maximum yields after 12 to 16 years. I found some references that olive trees reach their maximum growth after fifty years, so that may have been the origin of the idea. I hope the weatherman in question is pleasantly surprised by olives within the decade. Apologies for highjack. I’ll go back to my martini now! ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/39 "2012-11-26T18:47:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > None of that has a thing to do with “deserves”. Why not? An olympic weightlifter who is strong enough to lift a weight “deserves” his gold medal. A group of people who can put together an army to take/hold land can also “deserve” to call it their homeland. It’s not necessarily the only thing involved, but you cannot say it has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![James52637](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@James52637](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/James52637)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186/40 "2012-11-26T19:43:15Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Why not? An olympic weightlifter who is strong enough to lift a weight “deserves” his gold medal. A group of people who can put together an army to take/hold land can also “deserve” to call it their homeland. It’s not necessarily the only thing involved, but you cannot say it has nothing to do with it. Thanks for the examples for my point. I didn’t realize it required explanation, but I suppose I didn’t make my meaning clear enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-a-right-to-a-homeland/641186.md?page=3)