# Who has more business smarts: Trump or Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 2, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833 "2019-02-02T14:20:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/61 "2019-02-03T14:44:23Z")
Obama. Trump’s business acumen is significantly below average. He grossly underperformed the S&P 500 even if you’re using his likely inflated stats. If he’d sold just his real estate holdings in 1982, retired and put his money in a fricking index fund, he’d be worth $20bn today. When you take into account the fact that he used significant leverage, his returns are downright abysmal. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/62 "2019-02-03T14:58:19Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > You were and are No, I’m not. Who are you to say that I am? Are you a mind reader? Please stop accusing me of doing this unless you have some evidence as basis for your accusation. I’m quite capable of putting my feelings aside and evaluate Trump based solely on the evidence. The objective evidence is that Trump is not terribly successful in business at best, and objectively bad at worst. As already pointed out (now by two people), Trump would have been better off putting his $400,000,000 into an index fund. Trump has shown no capability to significantly grow wealth better than average. He has been successful with some of his real estate, but again this is predicated on having massive loans from his family to get himself started. No $400,000,000 in loans, no Trump. The fact that others have inherited great wealth and not gone on to become Trump-like is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is Trump’s performance with a starting point of $400,000,000. From that starting point, his performance is poor at best. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/63 "2019-02-03T14:59:16Z")
Just cutting to the chase here. What’s the point of this thread? If we somehow agree that Trump is better at business than Obama, that makes all the manifest incompetency and corruption of his administration OK? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/64 "2019-02-03T16:01:39Z")
I’m willing to concede that Trump is also the better athlete and would beat Obama handily in a round of golf— provided it isn’t televised, they’re trusted to report their own scores, and Trump’s blind caddy signs an ironclad non-disclosure agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/65 "2019-02-03T16:15:49Z")
Six bankruptcies versus no bankruptcies. Why is this even a question? Even without getting into the fact that Trump got massive amounts of cash from daddy, sat in a soaring market and still managed to crash hard and repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/66 "2019-02-03T16:24:41Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > No, I’m not. Yes you are. > [@](#): > > Who are you to say that I am? An observer making an observation, of course inherently one that is of a judgment. > [@](#): > > this unless you have some evidence as basis for your accusation. These very comments are evidence enough. > [@](#): > > The objective evidence is that Trump is not terribly successful in business at best, the objective evidence is that he is in fact not successful at all in the operational busines but very successful in the niche of marketing and branding business, enough to restart his reputation on several occasions after the disasters in the operational business. That is the objective evidence. > [@](#): > > As already pointed out (now by two people), Trump would have been better off putting his $400,000,000 into an index fund. That is a subjective assertion that is not based (because there is not the data available to truly judge) > [@](#): > > Trump has shown no capability to significantly grow wealth better than average. That is not the same question as having “business smarts” as of course again there are different composants of such skills - his ability to recuperate from his disasters in the operational businesses -via the various marketing of name schemes and a certain genuis for the pure distortion field marketing - are clearly unusual and not merely based on the inheritance. > [@](#): > > He has been successful with some of his real estate, but again this is predicated on having massive loans from his family to get himself started. As is the case of almost every large family real estate group and indeed not saying anything one way or another on general business skills. The track record of recovery is indeed unusual - it is clear. It is of course as clear that no lessons were learned by him for the management in any successful way of an operational business, requiring business adminstration and operational management skills, nor in the pricing of investments going into companies, as the track record shows, but in the making of serious money via the marketing deals and the self-markeitng of a brand, there is clear success. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/67 "2019-02-03T17:11:45Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Sure, but it’s still a bit of a silly thing to make claims on Obama’s business acumen based on investments someone in the EPA made based on a program from before he took office. Especially if those claims are stupid and wrong. Oh, agreed, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/68 "2019-02-03T17:16:57Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes you are. Ok. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/69 "2019-02-03T17:36:28Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > People also don’t credit him with this business failure because Solyndra was one of the many companies involved in the program - a program designed to find promising but untested green energy solutions - and the program as a whole turned a profit. This is a bit like looking at a hedge fund that was overall profitable and complaining that one of the investments it made didn’t pan out. When you invest, you expect a certain degree of loss. > Except even that’s unfair, because a hedge fund typically doesn’t have the secondary goal of supporting emerging and unsure technology. The point of the program was, in large part, to support “out-there” ideas. > Did you not know any of this? A .09% profit? Really? that’s the sword you’re going to fall on after the graft inspired loan to Solyndra? Adjusted for inflation that’s still a net loss. Did you know Obama was warned about Solyndra and pushed the loan anyway? > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > If the program had broken even, it would have been above-budget, because it was never expected to be profitable. Taken a whole, though, the program was a massive success - instead of the up to 10 billion dollars in losses Congress had planned for, [the program ended up turning a profit](https://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363572151/after-solyndra-loss-u-s-energy-loan-program-turning-a-profit?t=1549181879169). clearly we have a different definition of success. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/70 "2019-02-03T17:42:06Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Six bankruptcies versus no bankruptcies. Why is this even a question? It’s hard to declare bankruptcy when your entire income is based on political charity. > [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Even without getting into the fact that Trump got massive amounts of cash from daddy, sat in a soaring market and still managed to crash hard and repeatedly. Almost all of Obama’s cash flow is from corporations who give him massive amounts of money for a speech. If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/71 "2019-02-03T17:52:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > clearly we have a different definition of success. You’ve claimed that multiple bankruptcies constitute a success, so I think this is something we can agree on. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/72 "2019-02-03T17:53:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire. This explains why Trump’s not a billionaire. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/73 "2019-02-03T17:58:17Z")
This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/74 "2019-02-03T18:00:16Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed. So is he Kim Kardashian or Perez Hilton? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/75 "2019-02-03T18:05:51Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > So is he Kim Kardashian or Perez Hilton? Both of them can run their business better than Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/76 "2019-02-03T18:07:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed. That’s debatable. It might instead be that Trump’s ability to convince people he’s more competent than he actually is has just allowed him to get into situations where he is then unable to do the job and fails. Trump might have achieved more actual success if he had been limited to jobs he was capable of doing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/77 "2019-02-03T18:14:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A .09% profit? Really? that’s the sword you’re going to fall on after the graft inspired loan to Solyndra? Adjusted for inflation that’s still a net loss. Did you know Obama was warned about Solyndra and pushed the loan anyway? > clearly we have a different definition of success. Man you’re the one who brought up a loan from the EPA as part of Obama’s “business acumen”, then ignored all the facts on the ground and acted like it meant anything. If you’re betting on experimental businesses and expecting not to make a profit (but instead to give the green energy business in the US a big leg up), and end up succeeding in your real goal and turning a profit anyways… … Look, if you’re trying to use this as an example of Obama’s business acumen being subpar (which you were!), you’re just fractally wrong. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/78 "2019-02-03T18:20:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s hard to declare bankruptcy when your entire income is based on political charity. > > Almost all of Obama’s cash flow is from corporations who give him massive amounts of money for a speech. If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire. What businesses has he run? Can you point to the failures that prevented his billionaireship? Did you ever consider that not everyone has a driving need to make billions? Who actually _needs_ that kind of money? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/79 "2019-02-03T18:21:10Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? Of course they are. In my real world work the venture financing arm is always complaining about the entrepreneurs who not only lack these skills but refuse to engage on them, leading to failure. This is the obsession of the real venture capital investor staff - they are very nicely paid to have a good focus on the business skills - including these. But at the same time we can observe that they always consider those to be the secondary - it is never the case I know of they ever invest in a purely marketing led venture. Their opinion strongly told to the rest of us is that the organizational and the technical are the core - and the marketing and promotion, it’s a skill that can be rented, so they are ready to fund the entrepreneurs without that so long as those same entrepreneurs are willing to “rent” the skills… > [@](#): > > He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is obviouslyterrible at running any business which requires a real organizational skill. That is very clear. If the business is basically purely the promotion and marketing he seems to do very well. I would not confuse “actual business” uniquely with the operations business (like say the airline), as the marketing and promotion is a real activity. > [@](#): > > He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed. It is clearly the evil genuis of self promotion and marketing. But no genuis in organization or management of real operations. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2019, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833/80 "2019-02-03T18:42:22Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed. His self promotion is largely aided by his wealth. If I’m making 15k a year, you probably will not give me much credibility when I tell you how to become rich. If I am a “billionaire”, then you will think that I know how to become rich, and listen much more attentively to what I have to say. Without his money to start with, had he simply been born to more modest means, I bet he would have ended up as a used car salesman. A good one, sure, maybe even a really good one, but he would never own the dealership that he worked for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-has-more-business-smarts-trump-or-obama/828833.md?page=5)