# Who, here is voting for Trump? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 6, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989 "2016-08-06T22:02:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/201 "2016-09-15T19:39:20Z")
If you don’t read them, how do you surmise their nature? Does _ad hominem_ give off a blue aura? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/202 "2016-09-15T19:40:40Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > I think we’re allowed a lot more than that, unless you’ve recently become a moderator and I missed the announcement. You don’t get to control your thread. I am allowed to request you stay within the parameters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/203 "2016-09-15T19:44:41Z")
Of course you are, and I am allowed to request that you wear a green hat! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/204 "2016-09-15T19:57:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We are abashed, ashamed. If it didn’t emanate from such a shining example of civility and reason, it might be suspicious. You are a beacon to us all! > > But don’t squander your gifts. Crystal pure piety such as yours should be applied in homeopathic dosages, a very little bit at very long intervals. Don’t waste it all on us, when there are so many in need! Saint octopus the Beatific One will try. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/205 "2016-09-15T19:57:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You were asked not to attack the posters here. DrDeth you do not get to instruct other posters in their behavior. Stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/206 "2016-09-15T19:58:35Z")
> [@purplehearingaid](#): > > I am NOT voting from Trump and not happy about having Hillary to vote for . Well if Hillary is really as sick as they say, maybe we will end up with what’s behind door number three. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/207 "2016-09-15T20:00:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > cite? source? For now, I’d even settle for a clear list of “the vast majority of reasons to support Trump” Trump is pro-life. I don’t know how anyone can honestly believe this. He is about as credible on this position as Michael Bloomberg would be if he suddenly had an “epiphany” and became pro-life right before a Republican primary. Trump is pro-gun. AFAICT, he has an instinctive aversion to gun rights that he is willing to overcome to win an election. Trump is anti-trade. Maybe. But right now every politician is pretty anti-trade, its the one thing that Hillary learned from the Bernie campaign. I don’t know how he is ever going to get renegotiation of our trade agreements past our trading partners AND congress but I don’t doubt he will try. UI just don’t see much daylight between Trump and Hillary on this point. Trump is going to crack down on illegal immigration. Does anyone believe that this is even possible beyond what we are already doing? Have you SEEN our borders? The MAIN reason to vote fur Trump is because you’re a late night show host and you don’t have a lot of material OR you are a survivalist and you want to justify spending all your money on MREs and ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/208 "2016-09-15T20:04:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > DrDeth you do not get to instruct other posters in their behavior. Stop it. Then close the thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/209 "2016-09-15T20:06:24Z")
Wait! I can tell moderators what to do? And you’re just telling me that _now_!? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/210 "2016-09-15T20:10:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then close the thread. I’m pretty sure I know how they’ll react to _that_ order. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/211 "2016-09-15T20:38:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You are one of a small subset of liberal posters on this site that isn’t full of condescension, double standards, and hostility. You are actually pleasant to engage with even when in disagreement. So would you say that the majority (Large Subset) of liberal posters on this site would fall into the category of “condescending, double standards and hostile”? Perhaps this grouping of people that you’ve accused of being like this could fit into some kind of container, like a … basket? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/212 "2016-09-15T20:47:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Then close the thread. You don’t get to tell me - or any moderator - what to do, either. Doing so may earn you warnings so I’d avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/213 "2016-10-27T07:21:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, who is, and why?😕 I am. There are a few reasons why, mostly pro-Trump, some anti-Hillary, some anti-Democrat. I have lurked SDMB off and on for a bit. I see it has not grown more even-handed over the years. So few Trump supporters here, it’s a shame. So I offer you this bump and some solicited comments. **Why** [ul][li]One reason is the undercurrent of **civic nationalism** that’s been so strong in his campaign. Individual, family, community, town, city, county, state, country: this is the hierarchy of human activity dominated by self-determination. I respect this impetus. In the future, self-determination may reach a scale larger than the nation, but at this time forces which act to expand the concept of nation to the next epiphenomenon do not seem to respect self-determination and instead actively discourage it. At this time in human history, I prefer nations as the largest reasonable entity. [/li] [li]Another reason is the **battle between a nation of laws and a nation of exceptions**. One frame that I’ve been unable to shake in this election is the insistance by the HRC/DNC camp that, roughly, Trump is bad because he follows the law. He protected his assets using bankruptcy filings? Bad. He took deductions on his tax returns? Bad. I can _sometimes_ support a person who, as an act of civil disobedience, willfully breaks the law in some Thoreua-like fashion (which is hardly happening today) but I can _never_ fail support a person who complies with the law. Meanwhile, excuses ratchet up by HRC regarding what at this point is plainly a felony regarding her personal email. I do not buy Comey’s suggestion that no “reasonable” prosecutor would take this case, and had I the political power I would simply put it to the nation and see if any prosecutors would like to take the case. So, we creep away from a nation of laws into a nation of men. Special rules for special people. Trump didn’t follow the law _right_ and Clinton broke the law right. What little conscience I have left after all these years forbids me from ever supporting Clinton.[/li] [li]Another reason is a shift in the **meaning of free trade**. Unlike some pundits I do not view Trump’s protectionism as some kind of neo-mercantilism. To me, free trade between nations is simply that: trade. What free trade appears to mean to western governments is: our companies get to run wild and they have the pre-existing capital to fuck your nation over so take what you can get. I remain unconvinced that what we have today is a net negative in terms of “jobs jobs jobs” but ethically I find it appalling. I feel like Trump is more in line with how I view trade. He seems to think it does impact jobs but reasonable people can disagree. In any case, this ties back to the nation as the largest reasonable entity that embodies self-determination, and so there is no sense in which I recognize the existence of multinational corporations in the sense we live with in 2016 as anything but inappropriate. Bluntly, I don’t mind buying Mexican cars, if they are _Mexican_ cars, not Ford cars built in Mexico. And if that still means Ford goes out of business, then this is the cruel hand of fate (or overregulation or underregulation or…)[/li] [li]I find our current **immigration** system utterly repulsive. First, we capture vital human capital from countries that need it most and take it for ourselves, making it more difficult for other countries to compete or otherwise improve their situation. Second, immigrants that do come here are treated worse than citizens with respect to their pay. Highly-paid Americans are laid off and replaced with “entry-level” workers to do ostensibly the same work at less pay. (Embarrassingly I have seen this happen at my own place of employment, which has only 50% of its employees as native-born, down from over 90% just ten years ago. And since their salaries are required by law to be posted I can tell plainly what is happening, even if there were no other evidence.) Even if I bought the idea that Americans are underskilled this would still be a weird kind of immigrant ponzi scheme, since unless you’re a biological determinist the children of successful immigrants will regress to the mean and be the same American workers that our immigration policy is meant to address. Even if India and China could pump out skilled workers indefinitely they still can’t afford to pay for an increasingly large native population that only gets by with tax “credits” and food stamps. It is not at all clear Trump agrees with me on this. His statements regarding legal immigration are thin on the ground. But I know neither Hillary’s public statements nor her private statements align with me.[/li] [li]I find our current **foreign policy** to be the most immoral thing in a long time, and in hindsight this election season has caused me to question whether we’ve had _any_ significant deviation in foreign policy since Reagan. Hope and Change Obama (who I voted for twice) has been just as aggressive as Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and WJ Clinton. Interfering in the self-determination of other nations, fomenting civil unrest, nation building, toppling leaders, aiding a civil war… these things do not endear me to the current political class and in 2016 I feel like there is almost a one-party state: the neocon party. Trump has not, to me, shown anything like this and apart from cooperating with Russia to take down ISIS, suggests no foreign aggression whatsoever. On this point I am 100% compelled to side with Trump.[/li] [li]Rightly or wrongly, the United States of America has become **world police** , complete with the bullying one expects from this position, and while it is fine for everyone to criticize the US for spending so much on the military, it is a little irritating to hear how horrible it would be for Trump to suggest we renegotiate various defense treaties. I believe Japan has as much of a right to self-determination as the United States and if Japan wants a military it has the right to it and if it still wishes to remain under US protection then it should pay the equivalent for it. I do not see any indication that this will make the world a _more_ dangerous place; rather, if anything, it will make it _just as dangerous_ in a different way. But it will mean some people may complain less about our military spending if they have to pay it themselves one way (to us) or another (spend it themselves).[/li] [li]The democratic party has made it 100% clear that white people are the enemy of the United States in ways I can hardly comprehend. New language has been dredged up from academic welfare recipients to leverage guilt at the state of the nation onto white people. Even if I were to agree with this in some abstract sense I am not born an enemy of anyone just by being white and I will roundly and continually reject any party which whispers this garbage, even though often it’s more than a whisper. Trump, on the other hand, has not laid the blame of the state of the US on anyone other than the political class. Even if I disagreed with Trump on this matter, which I don’t, I could not possibly vote against someone who seeks to fix the system rather than fix the people.[/li] [li]I really wish Trump had just given the GOP the middle finger early and tried to get Jim Webb as his VP rather than Pence who I find unimpressive. Not that I know Webb would have accepted.[/li][/ul] Well, there you have it, one Trump supporter, and why. Happy voting, SDMB. We always get the president we deserve. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/214 "2016-10-27T11:44:55Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > I am. There are a few reasons why, mostly pro-Trump, some anti-Hillary, some anti-Democrat. > > I have lurked SDMB off and on for a bit. I see it has not grown more even-handed over the years. So few Trump supporters here, it’s a shame. So I offer you this bump and some solicited comments. Thanks for sharing. I’ll try to respond with the same thoughtfulness as you have. [quote] **Why** [list][li]One reason is the undercurrent of **civic nationalism** that’s been so strong in his campaign. Individual, family, community, town, city, county, state, country: this is the hierarchy of human activity dominated by self-determination. I respect this impetus. In the future, self-determination may reach a scale larger than the nation, but at this time forces which act to expand the concept of nation to the next epiphenomenon do not seem to respect self-determination and instead actively discourage it. At this time in human history, I prefer nations as the largest reasonable entity. [/li][/quote] From the point of view of a Trump opponent, what he’s been advocating for is white nationalism masquerading as civic nationalism. He’s advocated for a ban on Muslims, said that a judge couldn’t be unbiased because of his ethnicity, and said that black people live in hell and life couldn’t possibly get worse for them. I find these statements bigoted and unpatriotic to our Muslim, Hispanic, and black fellow Americans. This is the attitude and type of belief that have caused nothing positive at all, and literally the worst atrocities in American history (slavery, violence and mistreatment of Native Americans, the century of brutalization against black people that followed slavery, internment of Japanese Americans, etc.). [quote] [li]Another reason is the **battle between a nation of laws and a nation of exceptions**. One frame that I’ve been unable to shake in this election is the insistance by the HRC/DNC camp that, roughly, Trump is bad because he follows the law. He protected his assets using bankruptcy filings? Bad. He took deductions on his tax returns? Bad. I can _sometimes_ support a person who, as an act of civil disobedience, willfully breaks the law in some Thoreua-like fashion (which is hardly happening today) but I can _never_ fail support a person who complies with the law. Meanwhile, excuses ratchet up by HRC regarding what at this point is plainly a felony regarding her personal email. I do not buy Comey’s suggestion that no “reasonable” prosecutor would take this case, and had I the political power I would simply put it to the nation and see if any prosecutors would like to take the case. So, we creep away from a nation of laws into a nation of men. Special rules for special people. Trump didn’t follow the law _right_ and Clinton broke the law right. What little conscience I have left after all these years forbids me from ever supporting Clinton.[/li][/quote] This is contrary to the facts as I understand them. In my experience active duty and civilian military (over 15 years total so far), no one is prosecuted for mishandling classified information (which is such a common occurrence that I know probably hundreds of people who have done it) unless it is done purposely and for reasons of treason, profit, or to aid a leak to the public. As for Trump’s tax and business history, those are criticized for the most part because he has kept them secret, and refused to release his tax returns. [quote] [li]Another reason is a shift in the **meaning of free trade**. Unlike some pundits I do not view Trump’s protectionism as some kind of neo-mercantilism. To me, free trade between nations is simply that: trade. What free trade appears to mean to western governments is: our companies get to run wild and they have the pre-existing capital to fuck your nation over so take what you can get. I remain unconvinced that what we have today is a net negative in terms of “jobs jobs jobs” but ethically I find it appalling. I feel like Trump is more in line with how I view trade. He seems to think it does impact jobs but reasonable people can disagree. In any case, this ties back to the nation as the largest reasonable entity that embodies self-determination, and so there is no sense in which I recognize the existence of multinational corporations in the sense we live with in 2016 as anything but inappropriate. Bluntly, I don’t mind buying Mexican cars, if they are _Mexican_ cars, not Ford cars built in Mexico. And if that still means Ford goes out of business, then this is the cruel hand of fate (or overregulation or underregulation or…)[/li][/quote] Fair enough. [quote] [li]I find our current **immigration** system utterly repulsive. First, we capture vital human capital from countries that need it most and take it for ourselves, making it more difficult for other countries to compete or otherwise improve their situation. Second, immigrants that do come here are treated worse than citizens with respect to their pay. Highly-paid Americans are laid off and replaced with “entry-level” workers to do ostensibly the same work at less pay. (Embarrassingly I have seen this happen at my own place of employment, which has only 50% of its employees as native-born, down from over 90% just ten years ago. And since their salaries are required by law to be posted I can tell plainly what is happening, even if there were no other evidence.) Even if I bought the idea that Americans are underskilled this would still be a weird kind of immigrant ponzi scheme, since unless you’re a biological determinist the children of successful immigrants will regress to the mean and be the same American workers that our immigration policy is meant to address. Even if India and China could pump out skilled workers indefinitely they still can’t afford to pay for an increasingly large native population that only gets by with tax “credits” and food stamps. It is not at all clear Trump agrees with me on this. His statements regarding legal immigration are thin on the ground. But I know neither Hillary’s public statements nor her private statements align with me.[/li][/quote] Fair enough. In my experience and understanding, immigration at the levels of the past several decades is an overwhelming net positive for America, even if there are negatives as well. Almost every immigrant I’ve ever met (including immigrants I served with in the Navy) is motivated, decent, and incredibly hard-working, and would make an absolutely incredible American citizen and make the country better by being here. So I disagree strongly. [quote] [li]I find our current **foreign policy** to be the most immoral thing in a long time, and in hindsight this election season has caused me to question whether we’ve had _any_ significant deviation in foreign policy since Reagan. Hope and Change Obama (who I voted for twice) has been just as aggressive as Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and WJ Clinton. Interfering in the self-determination of other nations, fomenting civil unrest, nation building, toppling leaders, aiding a civil war… these things do not endear me to the current political class and in 2016 I feel like there is almost a one-party state: the neocon party. Trump has not, to me, shown anything like this and apart from cooperating with Russia to take down ISIS, suggests no foreign aggression whatsoever. On this point I am 100% compelled to side with Trump.[/li][/quote] Based on Trump’s cavalier statements about nuclear weapons, I think he’d be an incredible risk. Further, he has said that Obama was wrong to get us out of Iraq when he did – if we had stayed, hundreds or thousands of American soldiers would have died that are alive now. Getting out was the wisest of a bunch of terrible options, and at least Obama has not presided over tens and hundreds of Americans dying every month, which would have happened had Trump had his way and we stayed in Iraq. [quote] [li]Rightly or wrongly, the United States of America has become **world police** , complete with the bullying one expects from this position, and while it is fine for everyone to criticize the US for spending so much on the military, it is a little irritating to hear how horrible it would be for Trump to suggest we renegotiate various defense treaties. I believe Japan has as much of a right to self-determination as the United States and if Japan wants a military it has the right to it and if it still wishes to remain under US protection then it should pay the equivalent for it. I do not see any indication that this will make the world a _more_ dangerous place; rather, if anything, it will make it _just as dangerous_ in a different way. But it will mean some people may complain less about our military spending if they have to pay it themselves one way (to us) or another (spend it themselves).[/li][/quote] Fair enough. I have the same concerns about his ignorant and cavalier attitude about nukes as above. [quote] [li]The democratic party has made it 100% clear that white people are the enemy of the United States in ways I can hardly comprehend. New language has been dredged up from academic welfare recipients to leverage guilt at the state of the nation onto white people. Even if I were to agree with this in some abstract sense I am not born an enemy of anyone just by being white and I will roundly and continually reject any party which whispers this garbage, even though often it’s more than a whisper. Trump, on the other hand, has not laid the blame of the state of the US on anyone other than the political class. Even if I disagreed with Trump on this matter, which I don’t, I could not possibly vote against someone who seeks to fix the system rather than fix the people.[/li][/quote] I think this is absurd and hyperbolic right-wing fantasy from talk radio. That the Democratic party thinks “white people are the enemy of the United States” is just so ridiculous that it’s laughable. I would just caution you that this is what David Duke wants you to think, and other prominent white supremacists. It’s based in fantasy and not reality. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/215 "2016-10-27T11:54:40Z")
Considering his past history, and the long, _long_ line of people that thought they had made a solid deal with him only to discover that they had to renegotiate(usually to their great loss) after the fact, why do you think he has suddenly turned 180 degrees and decided to care about anyone but himself, and why do you believe he isn’t lying to _you_ to get what he wants _now_? A lot of people in the past took him at his word to their great detriment when he told them what they wanted to hear-why do you think they people he’s courting now are suddenly an exception? _Why do you believe what comes out of Trump’s mouth?_ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/216 "2016-10-27T12:42:39Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > One reason is the undercurrent of **civic nationalism** that’s been so strong in his campaign. Individual, family, community, town, city, county, state, country: this is the hierarchy of human activity dominated by self-determination. I respect this impetus. In the future, self-determination may reach a scale larger than the nation, but at this time forces which act to expand the concept of nation to the next epiphenomenon do not seem to respect self-determination and instead actively discourage it. At this time in human history, I prefer nations as the largest reasonable entity. What he really stands for is _white_ nationalism. If you’re not a white hetero Christian male, you aren’t part of the nation. > [@](#): > > Another reason is the **battle between a nation of laws and a nation of exceptions**. One frame that I’ve been unable to shake in this election is the insistance by the HRC/DNC camp that, roughly, Trump is bad because he follows the law. He protected his assets using bankruptcy filings? Bad. He took deductions on his tax returns? Bad. I can _sometimes_ support a person who, as an act of civil disobedience, willfully breaks the law in some Thoreua-like fashion (which is hardly happening today) but I can _never_ fail support a person who complies with the law. Meanwhile, excuses ratchet up by HRC regarding what at this point is plainly a felony regarding her personal email. I do not buy Comey’s suggestion that no “reasonable” prosecutor would take this case, and had I the political power I would simply put it to the nation and see if any prosecutors would like to take the case. So, we creep away from a nation of laws into a nation of men. Special rules for special people. Trump didn’t follow the law _right_ and Clinton broke the law right. What little conscience I have left after all these years forbids me from ever supporting Clinton. If he had released his tax returns as has every candidate in the modern era, we might have a chance to judge the ethics of his personal financial behavior. Regarding the emails, can you point to anyone who was harmed by them? My opinion is that there is little more than a smoke-generating machine behind all this smoke. > [@](#): > > I find our current **immigration** system utterly repulsive. First, we capture vital human capital from countries that need it most and take it for ourselves, making it more difficult for other countries to compete or otherwise improve their situation. Second, immigrants that do come here are treated worse than citizens with respect to their pay. Highly-paid Americans are laid off and replaced with “entry-level” workers to do ostensibly the same work at less pay. (Embarrassingly I have seen this happen at my own place of employment, which has only 50% of its employees as native-born, down from over 90% just ten years ago. And since their salaries are required by law to be posted I can tell plainly what is happening, even if there were no other evidence.) Even if I bought the idea that Americans are underskilled this would still be a weird kind of immigrant ponzi scheme, since unless you’re a biological determinist the children of successful immigrants will regress to the mean and be the same American workers that our immigration policy is meant to address. Even if India and China could pump out skilled workers indefinitely they still can’t afford to pay for an increasingly large native population that only gets by with tax “credits” and food stamps. It is not at all clear Trump agrees with me on this. His statements regarding legal immigration are thin on the ground. But I know neither Hillary’s public statements nor her private statements align with me. Trump himself exploited immigrant labor but now is the steadfast defender of all that is pure American goodness? Does it not bother you that Trump calls for the religious profiling of immigrants? > [@](#): > > Rightly or wrongly, the United States of America has become **world police** , complete with the bullying one expects from this position, and while it is fine for everyone to criticize the US for spending so much on the military, it is a little irritating to hear how horrible it would be for Trump to suggest we renegotiate various defense treaties. I believe Japan has as much of a right to self-determination as the United States and if Japan wants a military it has the right to it and if it still wishes to remain under US protection then it should pay the equivalent for it. I do not see any indication that this will make the world a _more_ dangerous place; rather, if anything, it will make it _just as dangerous_ in a different way. But it will mean some people may complain less about our military spending if they have to pay it themselves one way (to us) or another (spend it themselves). You don’t think Trump goes to far when he suggests that if Russia invades a NATO country, the first thing we should do is make sure that the invaded nation is current on their payments? You don’t get queasy when he suggests that the more nukes, the merrier? > [@](#): > > The democratic party has made it 100% clear that white people are the enemy of the United States in ways I can hardly comprehend. New language has been dredged up from academic welfare recipients to leverage guilt at the state of the nation onto white people. Even if I were to agree with this in some abstract sense I am not born an enemy of anyone just by being white and I will roundly and continually reject any party which whispers this garbage, even though often it’s more than a whisper. Trump, on the other hand, has not laid the blame of the state of the US on anyone other than the political class. Even if I disagreed with Trump on this matter, which I don’t, I could not possibly vote against someone who seeks to fix the system rather than fix the people. This is right wing fantasy. Stop listening to Michael Savage. > [@](#): > > I really wish Trump had just given the GOP the middle finger early and tried to get Jim Webb as his VP rather than Pence who I find unimpressive. Not that I know Webb would have accepted. I’m no fan of Webb and I’m no more a fan of Pence than Trump is. He did run as a Republican and it isn’t unreasonable for Republicans to have insisted that the running mate be a party member. > [@](#): > > Well, there you have it, one Trump supporter, and why. > > Happy voting, SDMB. We always get the president we deserve. Not always, sometimes we get the guy (Bush) who cheated his way in. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/217 "2016-10-27T13:00:27Z")
Wait, just to be clear: You think that America is mistreating our immigrants now, and you’re voting for Trump because you think he’ll make this _better_? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/218 "2016-10-27T14:11:07Z")
I, too, wish that Trump had given the GOP the middle finger early-then they would have cut him off at the knees finance and PR-wise right off the bat, and we wouldn’t be talking about him today. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/219 "2016-10-27T15:18:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, just to be clear: You think that America is mistreating our immigrants now, and you’re voting for Trump because you think he’ll make this _better_? Trump’s messaging regarding our existing legal immigration program are very thin on the ground and I don’t know if we see eye to eye at all on that. I know from some rallies he’s given that he understands how businesses are using the system (as it was designed) but he’s never made it a big issue. His official position is to keep going the way things are, with the exception of illegal immigration. > [@BobLibDem](#): > > What he really stands for is white nationalism. We will disagree on this point. > [@](#): > > Regarding the emails, can you point to anyone who was harmed by them? My reading of the law regarding classified information does not require harm. People in jail now because of mishandling of classified information did not harm anyone. I am not sure that “harm” is the right standard for this kind of law, which is more of a rule-utilitarian law. The fact that she did this, and lied to the FBI about it, is simply enough to disqualify Hillary Clinton in my eyes. > [@](#): > > Trump himself exploited immigrant labor but now is the steadfast defender of all that is pure American goodness? These positions are not contradictory. Disagreeing with the law does not logically compel one to do anything but seek to change it. > [@](#): > > Does it not bother you that Trump calls for the religious profiling of immigrants? This did bother me, yes. > [@](#): > > You don’t think Trump goes to far when he suggests that if Russia invades a NATO country, the first thing we should do is make sure that the invaded nation is current on their payments? I am not an armchair expert on NATO. My understanding is how he wishes to proceed with respect to renegotiation of defense treaties and enforcement of existing treaties. If he has suggested we violate our duties under existing treaties then I would disagree with that. That goes too far. > [@](#): > > You don’t get queasy when he suggests that the more nukes, the merrier? No. > [@](#): > > This is right wing fantasy. Stop listening to Michael Savage. I don’t know who that is, sorry. > [@](#): > > Not always, sometimes we get the guy (Bush) who cheated his way in. I wish more people remembered this. But regardless, my point was that people got the president they deserved, not necessarily the president they voted for. By creating and accepting an environment where elections can be stolen we can hardly be shocked when they are. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I, too, wish that Trump had given the GOP the middle finger early-then they would have cut him off at the knees finance and PR-wise right off the bat, and we wouldn’t be talking about him today. Is it your position that the GOP has been supportive of Trump? From where I sit the GOP hates Trump almost as much as the Democrats. Well, if the polls are right you’ll have your party back soon and they can all virtue signal their way to irrelevancy. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989/220 "2016-10-27T15:26:22Z")
erislover, we may disagree but I for one appreciate the polite and civil nature of your responses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-here-is-voting-for-trump/761989.md?page=12)