# Who, in all of human history, has had the greatest impact upon modern society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264 "2012-05-17T23:09:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/21 "2012-05-18T02:43:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s Aristotle. It’s Aristotle! But wait, Jesus is coming around on the inside. He’s picking up speed! Can he do it, YES! It’s Jesus by a nose!!! > > I was going to come in to say Newton, but I think this is one of thomse questions that has no real answer. Of course, it could be Maxwell, too, since the modern world runs on electricity. Maxwell stood on Faraday’s shoulders… ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/22 "2012-05-18T02:44:12Z")
According to the SDMB a couple of years ago, it’s Newton, followed by Gutenberg, then Aristotle. I vote for Aristotle. [The 100 Most Influential People - Try the Third - The Game Room - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559639) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/23 "2012-05-18T03:08:16Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Gutenberg. The printing press has probably done more to change history than anything else. No cites, though. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Seconded. The movable-type printing press was a data revolution only third behind writing and speech itself. This supposes no one else would have done it. No doubt the invention of the printing press was a major turning point in history but if it wasn’t Gutenberg it would have been someone else sooner or later. There are lots of instances where people were inventing things in parallel (sometimes literally at the same time and not knowing it). I do not have examples at hand but reading _A Short History of Nearly Everything_ you see this sort of thing over and over. It’s like human progress gets to some point and then all of a sudden a bunch of people start working on the same new, cool idea (often with no clue anyone else is doing it). Not saying this was the case with the printing press (I have no idea) but just that a time comes for certain ideas and someone, somewhere, goes with it. If that person doesn’t someone else will. One person usually gets credit and everyone else is barely a footnote. For instance most would say Marconi invented the radio which is certainly a huge step in human progress. But historically whether Marconi should get the credit is, to say the least, in some dispute. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/24 "2012-05-18T03:13:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But historically whether Marconi should get the credit is, to say the least, in some dispute. Nah, it’s simply false. That prize would go to Tesla with no serious (informed) dispute. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/25 "2012-05-18T03:32:58Z")
Thales, or possibly his successor Anaximander: the first naturalistic and systematically critical thinkers. And we know their names, where they lived, and their approximate dates. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/26 "2012-05-18T03:51:33Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Well, the first question is who to exclude. Because, of course, Uggh, who invented fire, Aaagh, who invented the wheel, and Og, who invented Gods, win. > > Hm. Okk, who invented the lever, making the first spear-thrower, is right up there too. For the win. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/27 "2012-05-18T03:53:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Maxwell stood on Faraday’s shoulders… It’s scientists all the way down! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/28 "2012-05-18T03:56:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > This supposes no one else would have done it. > > No doubt the invention of the printing press was a major turning point in history but if it wasn’t Gutenberg it would have been someone else sooner or later. In _this_ history, as far as “shaping the modern world” goes, Gutenberg invented the movable type press, Newton discovered the laws of gravitation, and Jesus founded a religion, so the “it would have been done anyway” argument isn’t really valid for the question. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/29 "2012-05-18T03:58:44Z")
I’m voting for Moses. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/30 "2012-05-18T03:59:53Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Newton discovered the laws of gravitation Actually, no, he didn’t. He got very, very close, but was wrong on two hugely important particulars. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/31 "2012-05-18T04:00:54Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In _this_ history, as far as “shaping the modern world” goes, Gutenberg invented the movable type press, Newton discovered the laws of gravitation, and Jesus founded a religion, so the “it would have been done anyway” argument isn’t really valid for the question. Well, I guess it is up to the OP to specify. I do not think it is what the OP is asking. I read the OP to be asking who, if they had not existed, would see the world a very changed place. If Gutenberg never existed the world would (likely) not be a very changed place because someone, somewhere, probably would have invented the printing press. Indeed Gutenberg did have a great impact on modern society but he was not “special” in that had he not existed society today would not be markedly different. And Newton described how gravity worked, he never described what gravity was (and he knew it too). If it wasn’t Newton someone else would have figured out how to mathematically predict how a ball moves when it is thrown. Jesus did not found a religion either. It was the people with him and after him who founded a religion around him. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/32 "2012-05-18T04:05:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, I guess it is up to the OP to specify. > > I do not think it is what the OP is asking. > > I read the OP to be asking who, if they had not existed, would see the world a very changed place. > > If Gutenberg never existed the world would (likely) not be a very changed place because someone, somewhere, probably would have invented the printing press. > > Indeed Gutenberg did have a great impact on modern society but he was not “special” in that had he not existed society today would not be markedly different. I don’t read the OP that way at all. It’s an affirmative question: who _did_ impact human history the most, not, whose absence would have changed human history. IMHO Gutenberg did. Even if in his absence someone else would have, does not take away fom the fact that he _did_ do it. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/33 "2012-05-18T04:20:58Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > IMHO Gutenberg did. Even if in his absence someone else would have, does not take away fom the fact that he _did_ do it. No doubt he deserves the credit and what he did was way cool. I am not trying to take anything away from him. Just saying without him the world today would (probably) be largely the same because someone else would have done it and we’d be singing that person’s praises. So to ask if Gutenberg did the most to affect modern society is to ask what the world would look like if he hadn’t existed. I submit not a lot different because someone else would have done what he did. Now, if you want to ask what would the world look like if the printing press had never been invented then yeah…he had a colossal effect. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/34 "2012-05-18T04:21:17Z")
Dr. Sam Beckett ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/35 "2012-05-18T04:27:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > No doubt he deserves the credit and what he did was way cool. I am not trying to take anything away from him. > > Just saying without him the world today would (probably) be largely the same because someone else would have done it and we’d be singing that person’s praises. > > So to ask if Gutenberg did the most to affect modern society is to ask what the world would look like if he hadn’t existed. I submit not a lot different because someone else would have done what he did. > > Now, if you want to ask what would the world look like if the printing press had never been invented then yeah…he had a colossal effect. But if Gutenberg didn’t exist, it wouldn’t be _our_ history. Essentially this argument eliminates the influence of all inventors, scientists, and explorers and places an undue emphasis on leaders, artists, and religious figures. So the question should be “what person, not working in the _physical_ world, had the greatest impact on modern history?” But that’s not the question asked. The question asked is “Who, in all of human history, has had the greatest impact upon modern society?”, not who was most irreplacable, most original, etc. Just the “greatest impact”. Please note that I didn’t go to the Reddit link in the OP, so perhaps the original intent was different. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/36 "2012-05-18T04:52:37Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > But if Gutenberg didn’t exist, it wouldn’t be _our_ history. > > Essentially this argument eliminates the influence of all inventors, scientists, and explorers and places an undue emphasis on leaders, artists, and religious figures. So the question should be “what person, not working in the _physical_ world, had the greatest impact on modern history?” > > But that’s not the question asked. The question asked is “Who, in all of human history, has had the greatest impact upon modern society?”, not who was most irreplacable, most original, etc. Just the “greatest impact”. > > Please note that I didn’t go to the Reddit link in the OP, so perhaps the original intent was different. I didn’t go to the link as well so I can’t say either. I think you could include inventors or scientists or explorers if you can make a case that their timing was pivotal. I suggested Alexander the Great earlier. History does not lack for conquerors. Yet Alexander managed to spread Western civilization in a way that stuck and profoundly affected how the future world unfolded. Even the Mongols, as incredibly successful and far reaching as they were, did not manage to have as long lasting an impact as Alexander. If an invention or scientific discovery is way ahead of its time or occurred at a critical moment they may well have affected the future world in ways that, if invented later, would not have occurred and that cold mean our present is profoundly different than if someone did the same thing at a later date. Of course making the case for such things is more difficult (but would be interesting to explore…[counterfactuals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfactual_history) can be fun to explore). ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/37 "2012-05-18T05:13:38Z")
In the game thread I linked to earlier (the “vote for the most influential person in history” thread), the top 3 most influential people in history were (as voted by the SDMB): 1. Aristotle 2. Johann Gutenberg 3. Isaac Newton In a post describing my thinking processes I wrote: > [@](#): > > Obviously I don’t think much of leaders. When I went through the rounds, I had three different criteria I used to make my selections: > > 1. Originality of idea > 2. > # of people affected > 3. Turning points > > The only two leaders which may have broken my top 10 would be Washington or Alexander the Great, for #3 and 2 respectively. My criteria show a bias towards scientists and inventors, but that’s who I am. > > Aristotle, to me, holds all three criteria in spades. His ideas are world-changingly original for his time. As one of the “fathers” of the Greco-Roman branch of Western Civilization, tens of billions of people have been affected by Aristotle’s ideas (most of them without knowing it), and his rationalist-scientific approach to the natural world was a turning point for all mankind. > > Gutenberg is a turning point. In 1455, Europe had maybe 10 million books, scrolls, etc, about 1/2 of all written material in the world. By 1600, Europe had over 150,000,000 printed books (88% of the worlds store of knowledge) and innumerable pamphlets, brochures, flyers, and bromides. Combine this explosion of knowledge in a civilization that appreciates the Greek rationalist approach (and is ready to add modifications of its own), and it’s no surprise that 200 years after the presses invention, Newton, the winner of the SDMB voting, appeared. > > Newton defies the categories - his triumph is showing what one could achieve in this new scientific age, from explaining why things fall down to making better telescopes, Newton generates awe in the completeness of his ideas. He showed mankind that the world, all of it, was open to our understanding… and our use. And he did so in a civilization with tens of thousands of printing presses and tens of millions of literate citizens. So the top two vote-getters did something that, possibly, maybe, even probably would’ve been done by someone else, eventually. But I don’t see how “somebody else could’ve done that!” diminishes the influence of the people who _did_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_McCue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/46a35a/32.png) [@John\_McCue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_McCue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/38 "2012-05-18T05:55:13Z")
Although I am not religious, I would have to say Jesus had the greatest influence on Western society ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/39 "2012-05-18T08:15:56Z")
> [@John\_McCue](#): > > Although I am not religious, I would have to say Jesus had the greatest influence on Western society During the epic thread alluded to by JohnT, Jesus had tough competition against St. Paul and Mohammad. While Christianity has more followers than Islam, it required both Paul and Jesus of Nazarath to exist, so Mohammad ultimately defeated them both. In fact Paul edged out Jesus narrowly. My take: “Mohammad beats Christianity because his genius was literary, religious and political. I judge St. Paul to be necessary for Christianity to take hold: Jesus of Nazareth was merely born into the role, as it were. Alternatively, I ascribe a substantial share of his teachings to those who came before and after him.” The thread was originally inspired by a list of Michael Hart. I’ll quote myself: > [@The 100 Most Influential People - Try the Third](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-100-most-influential-people-try-the-third/536080/702): > > I took the top 20 from the SDMB list and the top 20 from Hart’s list and merged them. Here they are in alphabetical order: > > Albert Einstein physicist; relativity; Einsteinian physics > Antoine Laurent Lavoisier father of modern chemistry; philosopher; economist > Aristotle influential Greek philosopher > Augustus Caesar ruler > Buddha founder of Buddhism > Charles Darwin biologist; described Darwinian evolution > Christopher Columbus explorer; led Europe to Americas > Confucius founder of Confucianism > Euclid mathematician; Euclidian geometry > Galileo Galilei astronomer; accurately described heliocentric solar system > Genghis Khan SDMB 8 > George Washington SDMB 6 > Isaac Newton Physicst, Mathematician > James Watt SDMB 10 > Jesus Christ founder of Christianity > Johann Gutenberg developed movable type; printed Bibles > Karl Marx SDMB 20 > Lenin SDMB 17 > Louis Pasteur scientist; pasteurization > Moses major prophet of Judaism > Mohammad Prophet of Islam; conqueror of Arabia > Nicolaus Copernicus astronomer; taught heliocentricity > Plato SDMB 11 > Shih Huang Ti Chinese emperor > St Paul Judaism; Christianity > Sui Wen Ti, unified China, SDMB 13 > Thomas Edison SDMB 15 > Ts’ai Lun inventor of paper > > Those compiling a personal top 10 list might choose from among these candidates. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264/40 "2012-05-18T08:20:28Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Jesus is gaining on him I don’t think any of Jesus’ basic principles are present in society. His name, yes, but none of his basic principles. Loving neighbours? Not resisting evil? Giving all of one’s money to the poor? Edit: > [@Measure for Measure](#): > > his genius was literary Irony, or? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-in-all-of-human-history-has-had-the-greatest-impact-upon-modern-society/622264.md?page=3)