# Who is a Jew? (removed from thread on Jewish heads of state) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 18, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719 "2022-03-18T14:39:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/81 "2022-03-28T15:21:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > who gets to define members of a group: each individual, or the consensus among members of the group? Some overlap of _both_ and how others view you. With context mattering. As with most identity issues. For the identity of Jewish it is … complicated. Again context. Nazi Germany? An individual and the community could both have excluded someone as Jewish (a paternal GF say and living as an observant baptized Catholic) but the impact of the government imposed identity swamped. In general though it is as has been pointed out, a tribal identity issue. There is your embracing being a member of the the group, respecting its traditions, sharing responsibility as a member of the tribe, the tribe accepting you, and outsiders impacts too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/82 "2022-03-28T15:22:48Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > ‘I’m an atheist because God wants me to be one’ is an interesting statement! I may sometimes offer a slightly less than serious summation of my journey away from Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/83 "2022-03-28T15:30:22Z")
I suspected you might be posting that intending the contradiction. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/84 "2022-03-28T15:50:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The interesting part of the question is, to me, who gets to define members of a group: each individual, or the consensus among members of the group? And this is where I’m coming from. I’m offended by any group believing it can “claim” an individual. I have Catholic in-laws who have told me they believe everyone is a Catholic, including atheist me, and that some just don’t know it yet. Now, I realize that isn’t the position of the Catholic church, but I’m sure there are religions that DO think that way. I seem to recall the Mormons getting flak for posthumous baptisms a few years ago. I am not available for claiming, I would never claim someone else, and I find the idea offensive. Want to know what I am? Ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/85 "2022-03-28T16:22:22Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > And this is where I’m coming from. I’m offended by any group believing it can “claim” an individual Are you offended by the notion that some country can “claim” you as a citizen simply based on the fact that you happened to be born there, and that other countries won’t necessarily accept you as a citizen of theirs based just on your claim to be such? Groups have a right to decide who is and isn’t part of the group. There are certainly instances where this can lead to oppressive situations, but I have a hard time seeing this as one. If some religious group you choose to have nothing to do with wants to view you as “one of them”, I don’t see how it’s any skin off your _(resists urge to make circumcision joke)_ nose. I’m not entirely sure, but I think that Catholics think that since I was baptized and subsequently rejected Catholicism, I’m headed for some part of Hell even more unpleasant than ordinary unbaptized heathens are going to. I don’t personally see how their having that belief harms me in any way. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/86 "2022-03-28T16:26:57Z")
But can you be a member of any club you choose? Can you claim to be a Navaho without the tribe accepting you as one? Can someone claim to be a French citizen based on their love of French culture without meeting the criteria set by the French? Clearly you do not get to decide alone either. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/87 "2022-03-28T17:22:40Z")
Citizenship is a contract which, by definition, one enters into by being born into a specific place. I’m no philosopher, but I know much has been written about this. However, if one leaves and is no longer a member of that community, then yes, I feel it is offensive to consider them still claimed by that group. China has made the claim that you never get to stop being Chinese, even if you emigrate and want nothing to do with them. I said it was offensive, not life-destroying. We’d agree (I suspect) that with things like pronouns we should respect the individual’s decisions, and it would be offensive to put our own views of their pronouns on them. Wouldn’t a Jew find it offensive if a Muslim said “well, with the coming of Mohammed, you all became Muslims and thus I now call you as much?”\* \*I also not a theologian, so take the example for what it’s trying to convey without worrying about whether it makes sense ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/88 "2022-03-28T17:24:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But can you be a member of any club you choose? No, but I don’t think it’s the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/89 "2022-03-28T17:33:02Z")
Well, I recognize the right of communities to draw boundaries and decide who is in or out. If someone insisted on telling me that according to Flying Spaghetti Monster law I am a Pastafarian and need to start wearing a colander, and didn’t drop the subject the first time they were asked to, yes, I would consider that boorish and offensive. But I wouldn’t consider the fact that the FSM church has rules defining who is and isn’t one of them to be inherently offensive. Likewise, I would never try to convince anyone that they are a Jew if they don’t want to define themselves as such. Perhaps more accurately, I would never try to convince anyone who, by some definition, is objectively a Jew that they should personally consider that definition meaningful. But I don’t think it’s reasonable for them to be offended by my personal opinions on the matter, as long as I keep them to myself. ---
**Author:** ![SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19adc/32.png) [@SpacemanSpiff\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpacemanSpiff_II)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/90 "2022-03-28T17:35:33Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If, however, they subsequently renounced Catholicism and began practicing some other religion, or became convinced atheists, the Church would view them as having effectively excommunicated themselves, so there would no longer be a conflict. Unlike Catholicism and other creedal religions, Judaism doesn’t recognize an individual right to opt out. I’ve seen a claim that Islam similarly doesn’t recognize a “right to opt out” (and that Barack Obama is therefore considered a Muslim under Islamic law, even though from his perspective he is a practicing Christian). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/91 "2022-03-28T17:39:23Z")
And the Mormons have pulled some weird and offensive tricks. > **[A Chronicle of the Mormon/Jewish Controversy; The LDS Agreement](https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ldsagree.html)** > > Mormon/Jewish controversy re: baptism of the Jewish dead > Thus in 1994, Jews were outraged when it became known that members of LDS were posthumously baptizing Holocaust victims and other Jewish dead. Many followers of Judaism find the practice highly offensive, something akin to the forced baptism of Jews practiced for centuries in Europe during the Middle Ages. Some see the practice as an implicit bias, an act of intolerance. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/92 "2022-03-28T17:40:43Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Well, I recognize the right of communities to draw boundaries and decide who is in or out. Am I imagining things, or did someone once post a story about two Japanese who had a kid who spoke Japanese, looked Japanese, and had Japanese citizenship, but because she spent X formative childhood years living and going to school in France, some people told her to her face they did not consider her a true Japanese? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/93 "2022-03-28T17:49:20Z")
Expound please. Religion and tribal memberships are precisely being members of a club. I cannot be Catholic without meeting the standards set by that club for being a member, be that baptism, belief, whatever. My unilaterally saying so don’t mean shit. And a group of Mormons unilaterally declaring me one of them means as little. How much and what sort of overlap depends on context of course. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/94 "2022-03-28T17:51:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The interesting part of the question is, to me, who gets to define members of a group: each individual, or the consensus among members of the group? [Here](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orthodox-jews-some-advice-please/633009) is a thread I started almost 12 years ago about an Orthodox group that wasn’t sure I was Jewish (or perhaps Jewish enough for _them_), and what I might have done about it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/95 "2022-03-28T17:52:34Z")
Doesn’t sound familiar. That’s just an example of people being stupid and bigoted, though. The entity that has the authority to decide who is and isn’t Japanese is the Japanese government, so in this case the girl clearly was Japanese. And we certainly have that in American Jewish culture as well; people who think the only “authentic” Jews are those born into Jewish families of Eastern European descent. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/96 "2022-03-28T17:55:18Z")
Yeah, I roll my eyes at posthumous Mormon “baptisms” of non-Mormons, but I can’t work myself up to anywhere near “outraged” about it. It’s really not “akin to” forced baptism of living people. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/97 "2022-03-28T20:12:43Z")
Maybe I should say it’s the same thing, just from a different direction: A group shouldn’t get to claim a person, and a person shouldn’t get to claim a group. Perhaps it has to be mutual. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/98 "2022-03-28T20:28:51Z")
Yuk. I don’t want to resurrect the zombie, but that prayer leader’s behavior (assuming he was in fact talking about you) was wrong by any standard. If you weren’t Jewish (by the Orthodox definition), and he somehow knew that, it would have been appropriate. I think what probably happened is that he heard gossip to the effect that you were a gentile or non-Orthodox convert, believed said gossip, and publicly embarrassed you based on that false belief. And Judaism takes gossipmongering and false accusations much more seriously than it does saying the prayers wrong. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/99 "2022-03-28T21:54:10Z")
It is very unlikely that anyone heard any gossip about me, since I was a virtual unknown in that group. I think that, not knowing me, he didn’t want to assume I was and risk being wrong or ask and possibly embarrass me. So he just got someone he knew met his standards. As it happens, I haven’t been in any similar situations since then. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2022, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719/100 "2022-03-29T03:20:19Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I know two men, who don’t know each other, who: > live in Orthodox communities > keep strictly kosher > strictly follow the Sabbath > wear a kippah whenever I have seen them > pray in a minyan multiple times a week, and routinely read Torah for their congregation > check with their rabbi to make sure they are following the rules on other matters > have told me they don’t believe in God > identify as Orthodox Jews I have no doubt that there are people who maintain strict Jewish practice, at least publicly, while not believing in G-d. However, there are some commandments that even if practiced, cannot possibly be fulfilled properly (per Orthodox Judaism) if one maintains atheist belief. How can one be fulfilling the commandment of saying Shema - the Torah portion declaration of G-d’s unity and the acceptance of his rulership - if while saying the words, he is actually believing that the entity of which it speaks does not exist? How can one be fulfilling the commandment of the Grace After Meals - thanking G-d for the bounty that one has eaten - if while saying the words he does not think he is thanking anyone? How can one be fulfilling the commandment of telling the story of the Exodus from Egypt - which the Torah says specifically is to acknowledge that G-d freed us - if while saying the words he is thinking that we were freed by some mundane means, or maybe even that the Egyptian bondage was a myth in the first place? While there is debate in the Talmud about whether one fulfills commandments by performing the actions even when not having the proper intent, where the commandment is some expression of sentiment, the expression without the sentiment cannot possibly be a proper fulfillment. > [@doreen](#): > > Someone earlier (maybe you) said that the point of ““If only they had forsaken me and kept my Torah.”” is that keeping the Torah even in the absence of belief might lead a person back to belief. I think I understand that - but what I don’t understand is why it would then be impossible to practice Judaism in the Orthodox manner and not believe in the existence of God. Yes, it was me that said that. And I explained above some examples of Jewish practice (at least among the Orthodox) that proper fulfillment would seem impossible while maintaining an atheist viewpoint. Nonetheless, the notion that performing the commandments (even those I listed as impossible to properly fulfill as an atheist) can draw a person back to belief is still valid. It simply means that while performing the commandments in such a manner, they are not truly being performed properly, but they may still serve a longer-term purpose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-jew-removed-from-thread-on-jewish-heads-of-state/961719.md?page=6)