Who is a Jew? (removed from thread on Jewish heads of state)

[panache45]

@cmkeller

How can one be fulfilling the commandment of saying Shema - the Torah portion declaration of G-d’s unity and the acceptance of his rulership - if while saying the words, he is actually believing that the entity of which it speaks does not exist? How can one be fulfilling the commandment of the Grace After Meals - thanking G-d for the bounty that one has eaten - if while saying the words he does not think he is thanking anyone? How can one be fulfilling the commandment of telling the story of the Exodus from Egypt - which the Torah says specifically is to acknowledge that G-d freed us - if while saying the words he is thinking that we were freed by some mundane means, or maybe even that the Egyptian bondage was a myth in the first place?

In one word: Tradition.

[puzzlegal]

@cmkeller

I have no doubt that there are people who maintain strict Jewish practice, at least publicly, while not believing in G-d. However, there are some commandments that even if practiced, cannot possibly be fulfilled properly (per Orthodox Judaism) if one maintains atheist belief.

And would you say that these people are not Jews? Are not Orthodox Jews? Or that they are Orthodox Jews who are not properly fulfilling some of the commandments?

[SpacemanSpiff_II]

@commasense

It is very unlikely that anyone heard any gossip about me, since I was a virtual unknown in that group. I think that, not knowing me, he didn’t want to assume I was and risk being wrong or ask and possibly embarrass me. So he just got someone he knew met his standards.

According to (at least some) traditionally accepted Orthodox rules, someone who publically violates the Sabbath (by Orthodox standards) is Jewish but does not count towards a minyan. So that guy might have been basing himself on more knowledge about you than you thought, but trying to spare you embarrassment to the extent possible.

[commasense]

I don’t understand. What makes you think he knew I violated the sabbath?

[Thing.Fish]

Assuming you’re correct that he couldn’t have heard any gossip, it would have been wrong to infer that from your casual dress; plenty of fully Orthodox Jews wear “normal” Western clothes.

I don’t have a lot of experience praying with the Orthodox, but the times that I have done so, even when my dress clearly marked me as Not One Of Them, nobody questioned my right to be there. So I don’t know exactly what the story was with your guy, but I can say that it’s, happily, unusual.

[SpacemanSpiff_II]

@commasense

What makes you think he knew I violated the sabbath?

I said he “might have been …”. Specifically, I would not be surprised if he quietly asked whoever it was who knew/invited you. But perhaps not.

The point here is that you and others have been assuming that the guy was making an incorrect assumption about you (which therefore couldn’t be based on any actual knowledge). It’s more likely that he was making a correct assumption about you, and quite possibly had some factual basis.

[cmkeller]

@puzzlegal

And would you say that these people are not Jews? Are not Orthodox Jews? Or that they are Orthodox Jews who are not properly fulfilling some of the commandments?

Likely the third (but which of us do not lapse in some way?), possibly the second, though that would probably depend very much on their own mental approach to the religious belief, which I would not be so presumptuous as to claim to know.

[puzzlegal]

Since this is a thread about “who is a Jew”, then I think you and I are roughly in agreement. I don’t think those people would be offended to know that you feel they are not properly fulfilling some of the laws.