# Who is a person? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2008, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904 "2008-04-25T22:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/41 "2008-04-28T00:38:40Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] It is pretty hard to debate a topic when the OP gets to arbitrarily decide what the definitions of words are. Why don’t you provide specific cites for those definitions? [/QUOTE] Actually it is even harder to debate a topic when responders get to arbitrarily build straw men by using their own definitions. Please forgive any misunderstandings. Yet now I wonder how it is you find these definitions ‘arbitrary’. I find they hold true as given. > [@](#): > > crime: prohibition or denial of liberty (even by threat). > liberty: the peaceful and well regulated pursuit of happiness. > person (as specific legal definition): one that holds liberty and equality under the law. > sin: any transgression; but especially a transgression against ‘holy’ law. > tyranny: prohibition of liberty by law. The definitions are fair and the questions are clear. Now is a good time to quit stalling. Do you deny that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Do you defend that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Please do not further argue technicalities. ItS Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7993a0/32.png) [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamaika_a_jamaikaiake)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/42 "2008-04-28T00:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Are you saying that you were not aware that the state persecutes sin as crime and denies liberty to gender and sinner? Please explain how it is if still you do not understand. [/QUOTE] First, how is this relevant to what I asked? Second, how does the state deny liberty to gender? What do you even mean by this? What do you mean by the state persecuting sin as crime? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/43 "2008-04-28T00:55:59Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Are you saying that you were not aware that the state persecutes sin as crime and denies liberty to gender and sinner? Please explain how it is if still you do not understand. [/quote] (Interested, but confused). Maybe it’s just me, but your argument seems rather vague, or over-broad… are you really suggesting that sinners (in general) are legally persecuted in the US? Blasphemers are denied their rights? Those who wear clothes of two fibers are shuffled off to prison? OK, second example deliberately absurd… but meant to illustrate the broadness of your brush. Or, in the immortal words of Arnold Jackson: “Watchoo talkin’ 'bout, Willis”. 😃 > [@](#): > > Panoply is not same as equality; no matter by how short. The question is whether and how you would defend that women and sinners are denied their full right of liberty. What specific legal restrictions to the “right of liberty” do you assert women are denied? > [@](#): > > Are there any McCain or Huckabee supporters lurking out there? Please defend why McCain courts those that would deny liberty by gender or sin. Ummm…cos they vote? It doesn’t jibe well with my sense of morals and ethics, and borders in an uneasy fashion on Popper’s “Paradox of Tolerance”, but since no politician can be held later to their vague campaign promises (_caveat emptor_ applies more to politicians than to general retailers where the buying public may have some come-back for faulty goods and services), then why would they not court these voters? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/44 "2008-04-28T02:12:07Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Yet now I wonder how it is you find these definitions ‘arbitrary’. I find they hold true as given. [/quote] They are arbitrary because you invented the definitions by yourself. Those definitions are not commonly accepted, much less authoritative, in the English language. In other words, make with the cites that show that crime is a violation of liberty. IHMO, that’s double-talk nonsense. A crime is a violation of law that’s prosecutable by the state, and dictionaries tend to back up my view. > [@](#): > > The definitions are fair and the questions are clear. Now is a good time to quit stalling. > > Do you deny that women and sinners are denied full liberty? > Do you defend that women and sinners are denied full liberty? > Please do not further argue technicalities. The definitions are wrong and you can’t even provide a citation for the accepted use of those words. Therefore, asking me whether sinners are denied full liberty is like asking me if sinners are also denied asofpoasnd#&(\*9jkasnd. That's because "asofpoasnd#&(\*9jkasnd" is a nonsense term used in this debate to mean whatever the proponent wants it to mean. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/45 "2008-04-29T02:34:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] They are arbitrary because you invented the definitions by yourself. Those definitions are not commonly accepted, much less authoritative, in the English language. In other words, make with the cites that show that crime is a violation of liberty. IHMO, that’s double-talk nonsense. A crime is a violation of law that’s prosecutable by the state, and dictionaries tend to back up my view. The definitions are wrong and you can’t even provide a citation for the accepted use of those words. Therefore, asking me whether sinners are denied full liberty is like asking me if sinners are also denied asofpoasnd#&(\*9jkasnd. That's because "asofpoasnd#&(\*9jkasnd" is a nonsense term used in this debate to mean whatever the proponent wants it to mean. [/QUOTE] I confess I am not surprised by your definitions. I have heard them used many times before; always to enslave and control. > [@](#): > > A tyrants dictionary > crime: whatever the law says is illegal. > justice: enforcement of law. > liberty: only what the law says you are allowed to do. > tyranny: a nonsense term; no such thing. It is not the symbol or word I use; it is only my meaning and definition that justly carries my spirit. Yet even as my words are denied as nonsense; failure to ask clarification of my definitions or meanings reveals them as sufficiently clear. Failure to offer better words for my definitions or meanings reveals desire only to obfuscate the spirit for which I stand; the spirit of liberty and justice for all. I know your mark. Yet I will not ask you to testify against yourself. You already have. You and We will find peace only through liberty. ItS Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/46 "2008-04-29T03:00:15Z")
Whoa – did you just call Noah Webster a fascist? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/47 "2008-04-29T14:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Do you deny that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Do you defend that women and sinners are denied full liberty? [/QUOTE] Yes, I deny these assertions. To the extent that they are true, I defend them. How about that? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/48 "2008-04-29T21:19:22Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Do you deny that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Do you defend that women and sinners are denied full liberty? [/QUOTE] According to at least one religion, it’s a sin to covet your neighbor’s house. I’ve coveted my neighbor’s house for well on 3 years now, and I haven’t been denied any liberties on account of it. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/49 "2008-04-29T23:31:20Z")
[QUOTE=Jamaika a jamaikaiaké] First, how is this relevant to what I asked? Second, how does the state deny liberty to gender? What do you even mean by this? What do you mean by the state persecuting sin as crime? [/QUOTE] Your questions show you are not aware that state denies liberty to gender or sinner. A person of one gender is prohibited from marrying a person of the same gender. Laws based on ‘morality’ (vices) are sin, not crime (denial or threat of denial of peace). [QUOTE=Apollyon] … are you really suggesting that sinners (in general) are legally persecuted in the US? …What specific legal restrictions to the “right of liberty” do you assert women are denied? …but since no politician can be held later to their vague campaign promises … then why would they not court these voters? [/QUOTE] Some sins are persecuted as crime, others are not. Please forgive any misunderstandings. I am allowed to marry the consenting adult woman of my choice, a woman is not. The politician that most aggressively courts those that espouse tyranny are more likely to be swayed by tyranny. I prefer a potential statesman. ItS Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/50 "2008-04-29T23:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Do you deny that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Do you defend that women and sinners are denied full liberty? Please do not further argue technicalities. [/QUOTE] Based purely on your own definitions then: Do you deny that men are denied full liberty? Do you deny that people in general are denied full liberty regardless of their gender or “purity”? Or conversely: Do you assert that women are denied additional liberties beyond those that men are denied? (Could you please offer an example or two based on your definitions?) Your term sinner is just too broad for useful argument (imo), as pretty much every human activity is a sin / transgression of holy writ to some religion or other, and even within a single religion various transgressions are given unequal weight… unless you are suggesting that legal restrictions are being placed on seafood restaurants because [God hates shrimp](http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/). 😃 There are certainly laws that curtail liberties for reasons of religious law / custom – [blue laws](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law) being obvious examples. But your argument wouldn’t seem to be about these since they curtail the liberties of sinners and the pure equally – OK, the faithful may choose not to purchase alcohol on Sundays regardless of the laws or lack thereof, but the laws themselves do not restrict the sinners more than the faithful. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/51 "2008-04-29T23:44:10Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Laws based on ‘morality’ (vices) are sin, not crime (denial or threat of denial of peace). [/QUOTE] [edit] Laws against vices are laws against sins. It is crime in name only to pursue your happiness without threatening the liberty of others. [/edit] ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/52 "2008-04-29T23:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] I am allowed to marry the consenting adult woman of my choice, a woman is not. [/quote] And you are equally not allowed to marry the consenting adult man of your choice – that is not an additional restriction on the liberties of women, but rather a restriction on those who would marry one of their own gender. And yes, probably has basis in “sin”, and should (imo) be done away with. > [@](#): > > The politician that most aggressively courts those that espouse tyranny are more likely to be swayed by tyranny. I prefer a potential statesman. No argument here. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/53 "2008-04-29T23:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=KidScruffy] According to at least one religion, it’s a sin to covet your neighbor’s house. I’ve coveted my neighbor’s house for well on 3 years now, and I haven’t been denied any liberties on account of it. [/QUOTE] I did not say all sinners. Please forgive any misunderstanding. [QUOTE=Ravenman] Whoa – did you just call Noah Webster a fascist? [/QUOTE] Noah Webster only reported the way the words were used by the fascists that subjugated slaves and women. [arbitrary](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arbitrary): 4. capricious Ravenman’s dictionary crime: a violation of law that’s prosecutable by the state. This fits the definition of arbitrary. Peaceful consumption of alcohol is threatened with violence where this liberty is denied. Peaceful consumption of alcohol is allowed across the jurisdictional border. Peaceful use of some herbal medications is regulated, peaceful use of prohibited medications risks violence. patriots dictionary crime: denial or prohibition of peaceful and well regulated pursuit of life (health), liberty and happiness. This definition is consistent for all; no matter the jurisdiction. A crime is denial or prohibition of peace by either citizen or state. Just governments are instituted to regulate pursuits in order to protect the equality of all. [QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Yes, I deny these assertions. To the extent that they are true, I defend them. How about that? 🙂 [/QUOTE] Well do it then. Defend the tyranny that highly qualified patriots that happen to be gay are kicked out of the military as standards are lowered to allow felons and high school flunk-outs to serve in their place? ItS Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2008, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/54 "2008-04-29T23:57:05Z")
[QUOTE=Apollyon] And you are equally not allowed to marry the consenting adult man of your choice – that is not an additional restriction on the liberties of women, but rather a restriction on those who would marry one of their own gender. And yes, probably has basis in “sin”, and should (imo) be done away with. No argument here. 🙂 [/QUOTE] I am allowed to immediately defend myself against anyone that would take of my blood or body without my permission; even to their death. Women are (at least) threatened with denial of that equal right. ItS Liberty rwj ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/55 "2008-04-30T00:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=Apollyon] Your term sinner is just too broad for useful argument (imo), as pretty much every human activity is a sin / transgression of holy writ to some religion or other, [/quote] Exactly. It was not my intention to imply that ALL sins were persecuted as crime. Everyone is a sinner according to some religion. That is why laws should be based on liberty and justice and not on religion. [QUOTE=Apollyon] But your argument wouldn’t seem to be about these since they curtail the liberties of sinners and the pure equally [/QUOTE] Denial of liberty for sinners and all equally is still denial of liberty for sinners. Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/56 "2008-04-30T03:37:37Z")
I’ll say this, **rwjefferson** , you may be a broken record, but you are a very entertaining fellow. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/57 "2008-04-30T04:18:28Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] That is why laws should be based on liberty and justice and not on religion. [/quote] I agree, provided we remember that many common religious prohibitions would remain sensible laws in a purely secular society with ideals of peaceful liberty, and shouldn’t be discounted just because they are also promoted by religion. (E.g. concepts of personal property, not stealing your neighbour’s ass, or killing him, etc). > [@](#): > > Denial of liberty for sinners and all equally is still denial of liberty for sinners. Mmm… not really. Your argument (seems) to be that certain classes of person (women, sinners) are denied liberty **beyond** the limitations imposed (rightly or wrongly) on other classes of person. Limitations on liberty that do not favour or limit any particular class over another do not further your argument. (It doesn’t make the limitation correct, it just doesn’t help prove that some classes are more limited than others). > [@](#): > > I am allowed to immediately defend myself against anyone that would take of my blood or body without my permission; even to their death. Women are (at least) threatened with denial of that equal right. Is this something in recent US news? (Not a US doper – this statement isn’t something I understand). Are you suggesting there are different standards of self-defence applied for men and women? Or does this mean something else? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/58 "2008-04-30T04:26:22Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] Well do it then. Defend the tyranny that highly qualified patriots that happen to be gay are kicked out of the military as standards are lowered to allow felons and high school flunk-outs to serve in their place? [/QUOTE] No, because I don’t think gays should be kicked out of the millitary. I’m just denying that women and sinners are denied full liberty. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/59 "2008-05-02T18:07:44Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] No, because I don’t think gays should be kicked out of the millitary. I’m just denying that women and sinners are denied full liberty. [/QUOTE] I did not intend to imply that all sinners were denied full liberty. I acknowledge and admit that only certain sinners are denied full liberty. Please forgive any misunderstanding. Well qualified patriots are denied their full liberty of serving in the military (and other prohibitions) for sin of gay. A gay is denied full liberty simply for being a sinner. Sinners of gay are denied full liberty. I am glad that you do not defend denial of liberty for any. Peace rwj ---
**Author:** ![Carnacki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5e925/32.png) [@Carnacki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnacki)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904/60 "2008-05-02T18:56:26Z")
[QUOTE=rwjefferson] I did not intend to imply that all sinners were denied full liberty. I acknowledge and admit that only certain sinners are denied full liberty. Please forgive any misunderstanding. Well qualified patriots are denied their full liberty of serving in the military (and other prohibitions) for sin of gay. A gay is denied full liberty simply for being a sinner. Sinners of gay are denied full liberty. I am glad that you do not defend denial of liberty for any. Peace rwj [/QUOTE] I’m not a logician, but there’s something that doesn’t add up right here. You say that some (but not all) sinners are denied full liberty. And that gays are sinners. And that gays are denied full liberty. How do we know the gays are being denied full liberty for being sinners? Couldn’t they be denied full liberty simply because they’re gay? Or to put it another way, if I accept the three premises above as true, it doesn’t logically follow that some sinners are denied full liberty _because_ they are sinners. What am I missing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-a-person/446904.md?page=4)