I make no pretensions about being a lady; that said, I do not believe that “lady” is an offensive term.
The most glaring example in the discussed thread is this post by Dog80. The clear gist of that post is “since I don’t want to be bothered to learn what is and is not insulting, I’m going to pretend that those people are simply randomly take offense at anything at all, use that as proof that they’re not really relevant, and treat them as irrelevant henceforth”. I see no purpose to Dog80’s post except to try to remind us uppity transsexuals of our proper place in the social order (which is to say, as far out of sight as possible except when our presence serves to amuse). And that is what I refer to by the “status quo”, since it represents the general attitude of such a large portion of the population, toward transsexuals (and toward gays, and several other minorities).
Having reviewed your posts, Mighty_Girl, I don’t see anything that qualifies as inappropriate, although I think you were far more defensive than you had any need to be.
If you want my opinion, the thread turned downhill when Turek jumped in and started grilling Eve for her opinion on the batshit-crazy status of that one guy in England (who, by the way, I’ve read about in other places, and he really is bat-shit crazy – and Russell Reid, the doctor who recommended him for surgery originally, is likely to lose his licence over his failure to spot it). IMO, Turek jumped in for the sole purpose of trying to Make Eve Wrong, a behavior that probably ought not be tolerated in GQ, but that’s neither here nor there. I know I have limited my responses in that thread because it’s in GQ, where even debate is inappropriate, let alone heated argument. I can’t speak for Eve, but I suspect that she, like I, has been informed for quite some time about that guy’s situation and knows that his double transition is the result of medical mismanagement of his mental health. In short, he’s insane because British NHS says he’s insane; that’s not just an opinion we formed from the mere knowledge of his double transition. But we certainly can’t let facts get in the way of a good tranny-bashing, can we?
I said:
You say:
You got it almost right. “I don’t want to be bothered to learn what is and is not insulting, when those things seem totaly random to me”.
I’ll give an example: DocCathode said:
SCS is offensive, but SRS is not? Why? The only difference is the words change and reassignment. In my view it is like corporate-speak, like the difference between use and utilize, ie. a play on words.
That’s how I feel. I don’t have an axe to grind with you guys, but this anal-retentiveness with terminology rubs me the wrong way.
So… you’re arguing over terminology?
What a bunch of oranges you guys are.
I suppose it’s ok with you to call a synagogue a “church”, too.
If somebody gets offended by me calling his synagogue a church, maybe the problem is on his end, not mine.
Tough noogies. You don’t get to define the terminology which is appropriate, meaningful, respectful and unoffensive for transpeople to describe themselves and the challenges that they face in their lives. You are not the arbiter of whether or not their terminology is too restrictive or “anal retentive.” You are allowed to define yourself and your life, transpeople have that right as well.
If you hadn’t kneejerked over DocCathode’s statement about SRS vs. SCS, you would’ve seen the reason why SRS is appropriate while SCS isn’t, because he explained it to you right there in the correction. In fact, every single time terminology was corrected in that thread, the reason why was explained. It’s right there in black and white, but you’re so offput by the fact that there’s been a correction at all that you’re not willing or able to notice and understand.
There is none so blind as he who will not see. If you really want to learn, try reading for context, content and comprehension instead of skimming through a filter of agenda.
The difference, as I see it, is sexual *reassignment * is the correction of something that nature got wrong; much like repairing a cleft palate or a hole in your heart.
Sex Change carries a connotation of “La-di-da, oh gee! I think I’m feeling rather feminine today so I’m going to change my sex. And maybe wear a dress and a pretty hat today. I’m sorta bat-shit crazy, and the whole thing is just a passing whim.”
It trivializes what trannys know is a deeper, much more complicated physical-emotional issue. My take, anyway.
Oh…and, Heh. TeaElle said, “Tough noogies.” Heh.
I don’t buy that explanation. I wouldn’t think sexual reassignment would also trivilize the whole process. After all if transexuals already know what sex they are why do they need to be reassigned? While I don’t think most people are particularly sensitive to the difficulties transexuals face I do believe most people don’t use change maliciously.
I’m having my appendix removed doesn’t mean I’m just doing it for fun or trivializing. I just don’t use appendectomy a whole lot.
Marc
I think this is one reason why these debates make so little headway, usually. On the one side there are people who see the world through the physical gender: sometimes they have an emotional investment in making sure the world conforms to their worldview of gender determined by body sex(although in the thread in question I don’t see that as the case).
On the core of other side we have persons who not only are heterosex (a term I just made up!!!), but also, gender is important enough to them that they desire to change their bodies to conform to their psychological gender.
I’m sort of in the middle. Sex is important to me, but gender isn’t really. I am not about to force my worldview down other’s throats, but conversely, I am not going to accept the millions of different agenda that try to make ME conform to their worldview without evidence. Which, in this case, is not lacking.
After all, if there is no concrete support for the grammatical and mimetic change one wishes to propigate, there IS no difference between one and one who is “batshit crazy”.
Which does not mean those who appear to be batshit crazy are always wrong, but I am not about to let them influence my life.
I’m sure that some trannys don’t bother with reassignment. But I more easily understand wanting the “inside” and the “outside” to be in line. I don’t see it as trivializing it at all.
TeaElle and Kalhoun: Sorry, but your explanations are inadequate for me. I can understand the difference between sex and gender. I can see why the term gender change is wrong. But I can’t find any difference between sex reassignment and sex change. Maybe it’s because English is not my first language.
I am tempted to raise a strong SEP field around the whole subject, but I won’t. I really want to be educated.
Well, like I said, I don’t know if I got it right or not (not being a tranny and all), but it’s not even a matter of being politically correct (although in delicate areas such as this, I chose the term that is non-offensive to the parties we’re discussing). It’s a matter of accuracy, as well. The inside and outside are not in alignment. You’re reassigning genitals to fit the gender identity (which can’t be changed as far as we know).
Ludovic A genetic basis for sex wouldn’t work. As I’ve said before though most humans are either XX, or XY, some humans are XO, XXY, etc. The chromosomal sex may not match external genitalia, internal structures, or the sexually dimorphic structures in the brain. There already is an umbrella term for indivuals in which the biological indicators of gender do not match up- intersexed.
Dog80 I don’t ask nonJews to understand that I go to shul to daven on shabbas. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to expect them to understand that I go to a synagogue and not a church. I would also explain that kike is extremely offensive and that yid and heeb should be used only with friends who know that no offense is intended and find the words acceptable.
Re SRS
Sex change implies that the surgery transforms a woman into a man (or vice versa). Sexual reassignment surgery is ‘this isn’t a man! It’s a woman! Correct the gender on the patient’s files and prep for corrective surgery’.
If I take out a bottle of vinegar and change it into vodka, I’ve performed magic.
If I take out a bottle of vinegar and discover that it’s always been full of vodka, I change the label and stick the stuff in the freezer.
Re Tranny
Like faggot, yid and a few others you should make sure people know your intent before using this word. (I’m not flaming Kalhoun or accusing her of anything. This is for the benefit of others.) The other problem with tranny is that it is used to refer to both transvestites and transexuals.
Re Chiropteran Excrement Dementia
Gender Identity disorder is a recognized condition. Hormone therapy and SRS are the only accepted treatment. Post mortem examinations of the termina strialis (It’s in the hypothalmus) strongly support (not enough evidence yet to call it conclusive proof) the idea that transexuals have a brain that conflicts with other biological indicators of sex. These same studies show that the termina strialis is unaffected by hormones during adulthood. The sex of the brain cannot be changed by any known means. Which makes it very unlikely that it would change back and forth several times in the mentally ill patient in question. The desire to undergo srs several times does not fit gender identity disorder. So, this person is undergoing expensive, complicated, surgery, and long courses of hormone therapy for some other reason entirely. I’d say that’s batshit crazy. Thorough testing and therapy will reveal schizophrenia, or some other condition which when left untreated does cause batshit crazy thinking and behavior.
FYI, I know the good Doc wasn’t flaming me…but just for clarification, I would never have used “Tranny” if KellyM hadn’t used it first. I’m sorry if I was being “too familiar.”
I am not arguing for or against emphasis on genetic gender. I am also aware of intersexed individuals. However, there should be terms for both persons of either psychological gender-- and by heterosex I mean their physical gender does not match their psychological gender (gender dysphoria, or whatveer term is used currently, to me seems to be an overly judgmental term)-- and for persons of either physical gender.
Insisting that a person with XY chromosomes and the equipment normally assigned to XY humans, but with a brain gender of female, is not only female and a she, but is a woman as well, to me leaves the English language sorely lacking in expressiveness.
I don’t think it can be explained to you any more succintly than it already has been explained. The sex of the transgendered person is not defined by their body, it’s defined by their mind. The surgery does not change their sex. The surgery reassigns their body to match their identity. The whole name of the surgery is really not accurate, but given the perimeters in which we must work, “reassignment” is simply more appropriate and accurate than “change.”
This may come across as a simple semantic argument, but it goes beyond that. Because this is a matter which deals with the very essence of people’s beings, it is obviously quite sensitive, and needs to be dealt with as such. Part of that is respecting the terminology.
We are trying to have a society here.
I was using it somewhat ironically, and my usage should not have been taken as approval of the term generally. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
It’s not judgmental; it’s accurate. It describes the overwhelming discomfort that those of us who have the misfortune to have a brain/body mismatch feel. A large part of it is probably attributable to hormone imbalance, and in my opinion the condition should be considered medical rather than psychological.
I would advise against using the term “heterosex” the way you are, as I suspect it will be confusing to most.
Oh, and I am female, she, and a woman. If you don’t like it, tough noogies.