# Who is he to me? (Genealogy help) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 13, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599 "2021-08-13T15:18:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/1 "2021-08-13T15:18:51Z")
A genealogist contracted to help the United States Army contacted me today, looking to get information about a relative of mine who was MIA in Luxembourg during World War 2, in 1944. I’d never heard of him before, and it’s no wonder. He was the only child of one of my paternal great-grandfather’s siblings. Said sibling died 18 years before I was born. So what is the fallen hero to me? Some form of cousin? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/2 "2021-08-13T15:23:12Z")
The standard notification is to count the shortest path to the common ancestor, in this case your great-great-grandparent or parents, but the other person’s grandparent or parents. That makes the relevant relationship a first cousin relationship (abbrev. 1C). But the first cousin is one of your grandparents, so you count the additional steps to get to you, i.e. two (to your parent, and then to you), which makes you first cousins, twice removed, or 1C2R. Or if the shared ancestor is just a single person and not a couple. Half-1C2R. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/3 "2021-08-13T15:27:35Z")
I also think he would be a first cousin twice removed. First cousin, second cousin, etc. is in relation to relatives of equal generation. So this man was first cousin to your grandfather. The twice removed tells how many generations different they are to you. this man was of your grandfather’s generation, which is 2 generations removed from yours. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/4 "2021-08-13T20:47:54Z")
And in English, at least, these terms are symmetric: He would also call you his first cousin twice removed. If you just say “Joe and Jim are first cousins twice removed”, it’s not clear which one is from the older generation and which the younger (unlike, say, uncle and nephew). ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/5 "2021-08-13T21:11:58Z")
Not necessarily. Some people would use a chart like this [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/a4/41/06a4416d17af45deebcc8accb4a7da2d.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/06/a4/41/06a4416d17af45deebcc8accb4a7da2d.jpg) If Joe and Jim are the same generation from the nearest common ancestor, then one can say “They are Nth cousins.” If Joe and Jim are of different generations, then one can say “They are cousins X times removed.” But “Nth cousins, X times removed” will be different, depending on which cousin is doing the reckoning. I know that a lot of people insist, with quasi-religious fervor, that the titles must be symmetric. In my opinion, this adds extra complexity, but does not add any extra information. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/6 "2021-08-13T22:09:28Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > If Joe and Jim are of different generations, then one can say “They are cousins X times removed.” But “Nth cousins, X times removed” will be different, depending on which cousin is doing the reckoning. > > I know that a lot of people insist, with quasi-religious fervor, that the titles must be symmetric. In my opinion, this adds extra complexity, but does not add any extra information. Check your chart again. Nth cousins X times removed is indeed symmetric on it. For instance 3rd cousin once removed is both the child of your third cousin, and the parent of your fourth, so if you read the chart with them as self, you get third cousin once removed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/7 "2021-08-13T22:38:48Z")
But the easiest is to say “my grandmother’s / grandfather’s cousin.” ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/8 "2021-08-13T22:47:58Z")
> [@naita](#): > > Check your chart again. Hmm. Neither Google nor Bing brings up the chart I learned when I was a kid. Apparently, the world has chosen complexity over clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/9 "2021-08-14T13:23:44Z")
The chart you linked, which is presumably the one “the world has chosen”, is the simple, clear one. What were the rules you learned? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/10 "2021-08-14T13:32:29Z")
“Nth cousin” indicates how far back is the common ancestor. A descendant of your grand parent is a first cousin, a descendant of your great grandparent is your 2nd cousin, a descendant of your great-great grandparent is your 3rd cousin. “X times removed” indicates how many generations separate you and your cousin. Descendants of your grandparent: Aunt/uncle 1st cousin 1st cousin once removed 1st cousin twice removed Descendants of your great grandparent: Grandaunt/uncle 2nd cousin once removed 2nd cousin 2nd cousin once removed 2nd cousin twice removed Descendants of your great great grandparent: great grandaunt/uncle 3rd cousin twice removed 3rd cousin once removed 3rd cousin 3rd cousin once removed 3rd cousin twice removed ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/11 "2021-08-14T13:35:51Z")
If I’m reading it right, the popular chart uses those rules to reckon the relationship from the point of view of the person closest to the common ancestor, then uses the same title for both people. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2021, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-he-to-me-genealogy-help/948599/12 "2021-08-14T13:57:34Z")
If, from your point of view, your relative is Nth cousin, X times removed, Then, from their point of view, you are (N ± X)th cousin, X times removed. Oh, and one more thing to watch for: great granduncle = great great uncle parent’s sibling is uncle grandparent’s sibling is granduncle great grandparent’s sibling is great granduncle grandparent’s child is aunt great grandparent’s child is great aunt great great grandparent’s child is great great aunt