# Who is more Formidable: Navy Seal or CIA Operative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430 "2003-01-23T14:10:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![catdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@catdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catdog)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/41 "2003-01-24T18:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by culture \* > \*\*Yes, let us pose yet another example: > > 1 Platoon of Abrams equiped 1st Armoured Division vs. 1 Platoon of SAS/Seals/Recon (your choice), on the open plains of Kansas. > \*\* Yeah, and give those SEALS a few Javelin anti-tank weapons… It’ll be all over. That again, would be fun to watch. And as I said earlier, you choose the unit for the task. Would I send a platoon of SEAL’s to take out a platoon of M1A2 Abrams? Heck no! Would I send a few Air Force A-10’s, Army Apaches or Marine Cobras against the armor? Heck yeah! Would I send A-10’s or Apache’s on a Combat Air Patrol against potential threats from MiG 29’s or other fighters? Heck no! Although units are extremely versatile, you must be mission specific in order to maximize their utility. You _could_ use SEAL’s as infantry, but why? ---
**Author:** ![mazzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@mazzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazzer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/42 "2003-01-24T19:14:48Z")
Ninjas have the REAL Ultimate Power. They are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet. Facts: 1. Ninjas are mammals. 2. Ninjas fight ALL the time. 3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/43 "2003-01-24T19:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*Canada, for example, has an elite force that almost no one knows about (JTF-2), but they are supremely kick-ass. > > And of course, you can be as tough as you want, and it won’t help you if a Canadian sniper shoots you from 2 miles away. Canada has maybe the best snipers in the world.\*\* “Smelling salts! Is there a doctor in the house with smelling salts?” **Reuters News Service Iraq, Saddam’s palace –** General: “Sir, I have grave news. The Infidels are at our perimeter!” Saddam: “We will smash the imperialist marching spiders and drive them into the sea!” General: “But, sir, you don’t understand. They’re wearing maple leaves on their uniforms! Big red maple leaves!” Saddam: “For the love of God, not the Canadian special forces! Surrender! Surrender! Don’t you know they have maybe the best snipers in the world?” * * * Sorry, Sam, couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![Coda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Coda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coda)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/44 "2003-01-24T19:47:37Z")
**Formidable** : 1 : causing fear, dread, or apprehension \ 2 : having qualities that discourage approach or attack 3 : tending to inspire awe or wonder I guess I should have been more specific. But for those who say the OP was il-worded let me clarify. Who would be more efficacious against enemy **combatants**? A group of hightly trained Navy Seals? Or a CIA operative? By operative I mean someone who is trained to infiltrate, gather data, and deal with extreme situations quickly, i.e. being discovered inside an Iraqi Presidential Palace what do you do? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/45 "2003-01-24T20:17:57Z")
The SEALs…no question. The CIA is an intelligence agency, not a combat one, and while its operations officers have training in small arms fire and hand to hand combat, it isn’t really combat training. SEALs are trained to kill people and blow things up, CIA officers are trained to gather and analyze information. Big difference. OTOH, if you were to sit a CIA officer and a SEAL down, give them satelite photographs of a terrorist camp, and say “Tell me what this base is used for and aproximately how many people are using it”, the CIA officer will have an edge. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/46 "2003-01-24T20:32:22Z")
This is like taking one apple, one orange, and then asking people which one tastes more like an avacado. Fact is, neither of these groups operate like the OP is thinking. 1. Special Forces are not supermen. They are smart soldiers. The difference? SF troops plan their assault, lead surgical strikes, and generally cause mayhem as fast and cleanly as possible. 2. CIA… well, which CIA? There are satelite watchers (checking satelite imagery), agent handlers, and many other small, unglamorous jobs. The best CIA operatives often have no training in combat - they are defectors from the enemy, and will quietly sift trhough information and send choice bits to us. ---
**Author:** ![JoltSucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@JoltSucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoltSucker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/47 "2003-01-24T22:13:15Z")
Back in the early 90s I worked for an ex-Seal. Even though his hair was gray and his skin wrinkled, he would show off his agility by leaping on to his desk from a seated position. He had this aura of calm scariness, sort of like you knew that if you pissed him off one moment, you’d be dead the next. He was the only armed service member who was credited with a “tooth kill” in Vietnam. When he got into hand-to-hand with a VC, and both hands were occupied, he bit the other guy in the jugular… ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/48 "2003-01-24T22:36:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Epimetheus \* > \*\*Maybe. The measure of the skills of the SAS vs the SEALS is not on a 1 on 1 basis though. Rather on how well they work as a team, and their past history. Like a resume. That can be compared. Comparing groups to individuals like Jordan VS Johnson is not quite a fair analogy. How about comparing say, the Chiefs with the Raiders. 😉 \*\* I agree. I’m sure lots of people can take a SEAL or Recon or SAS soldier one on one. The trick is that no 3 regular people would have a chance against 3 SEALs. No 10 regular people would have a chance against 5 SEALs. (assuming they’re prepared for the conflict, of course) ---
**Author:** ![Mephisto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@Mephisto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mephisto)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/49 "2003-01-24T22:52:41Z")
What is formidable? Really, there are so many individuals with so many varied strengths and weaknesses that I don’t think the question can be answered. To me the comparison of various elite (or non-elite, even) forces is like comparing universities. Which is better, Harvard or Yale? You could probably come up with some kind of criteria, do comparisons, and come up with an answer for a few specific things, but I don’t know if you would ever really know which was the “best.” I don’t have cite sites handy, but I know basic descriptions for the training of both SEALs and CIA officers of various kinds is online and is available in many books that are said to be accurate by people who should know. It should be noted that the CIA does field paramilitary teams that sometimes resemble military special operations units. You don’t hear about them much. The most recent use of them that I know about is in Afghanistan. Some mention of these teams is made in a book I read for school, Bob Woodward’s recent _Bush At War_. Not a terribly bad book, but not worth the hardback price, IMHO. **Coda** may be interested to know that at least one of the teams has utilized people with a SEAL background. Personally, it is the Star Fleet officer that impresses me that most. Worf could kick Rambo’s ass on a star ship _and_ in the backwoods of Kentucky. Picard, of course, could take on both Rambo and Worf. For the record, I received some training from a very impressive indivual from the [CIA](http://www.ciachef.edu/). Few people on Earth can weild a knife like my old friend. And now I shall duck and run. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/50 "2003-01-24T23:28:05Z")
While the Seals are formidable the super elite, very hush hush Army Penguins are generally regarded as the most deadly fighting force known to man in the modern world. Recruited not only for their superlative physical conditioning and fighting skills these shadow warriors …urrrrkkk… ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/51 "2003-01-25T00:46:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chriszarate \* > \*\*Ninjas have the REAL Ultimate Power. They are cool; and by cool, I mean totally sweet. > > Facts: > > 1. Ninjas are mammals. > 2. Ninjas fight ALL the time. > 3. The purpose of the ninja is to flip out and kill people. \*\* **Cite?** [sub]I mean, it’s not like we can just type “[http://www.realultimatepower.net](http://www.realultimatepower.net)” and find out all about how sweet ninjas are.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![censored](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/35a633/32.png) [@censored](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/censored)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/52 "2003-01-25T01:19:25Z")
This is such a stupid thread. BTW: the only people who can try out for Delta Force are those in the Army and who meet Delta’s requirements. SEALs, Marine Recon, etc cannot try out. They may do an inter-service transfer, but then they’d be in the Army, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/53 "2003-01-25T01:40:29Z")
**tsunamisurfer:** I suggest you ask the al-Qaida in Afghanistan whether or not they thought the Canadians were a joke. Canadians had the highest kill ratio of any combatants in Afghanistan. The U.S. wanted to give bronze stars to four Canadians for valor - including saving an entire company of the 10th Mountain Division that was pinned down by an al-Qaida pocket. The Canadians (and two American special forces) snuck up to within sniping range, and killed every last one of them. Canada’s military may be small and criminally underfunded, but man-for-man it’s still one of the best in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/54 "2003-01-25T01:48:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JoltSucker \* > \*\*He was the only armed service member who was credited with a “tooth kill” in Vietnam. When he got into hand-to-hand with a VC, and both hands were occupied, he bit the other guy in the jugular… \*\* ALERT!! Stop the thread please. What does this mean, exactly? Were there _unarmed_ service members credited with a tooth kill? Are there other kinds of kills like this in a big book of “credited Vietnam kills” somewhere - toe kill, thumb kill, tongue kill? How did they find out his was the **only** tooth kill - did they have everyone coming back from the front lines fill out a form: “Did you kill anyone with your teeth? If so, check this box.” You know what? Nevermind my skepticism. I want to believe this. I **have** to believe this. Thank you for making my weekend. I will be saying “tooth kill” and chuckling to myself for days. ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/55 "2003-01-25T04:42:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\ ***tsunamisurfer:** I suggest you ask the al-Qaida in Afghanistan whether or not they thought the Canadians were a joke. > > Canadians had the highest kill ratio of any combatants in Afghanistan. The U.S. wanted to give bronze stars to four Canadians for valor - including saving an entire company of the 10th Mountain Division that was pinned down by an al-Qaida pocket. The Canadians (and two American special forces) snuck up to within sniping range, and killed every last one of them. > > Canada’s military may be small and criminally underfunded, but man-for-man it’s still one of the best in the world. \*\* I believe you, Sam. But what the hell is this all about re: The Canadian special forces? [http://www.ipsystems.com/powmia/SecretArmy.html](http://www.ipsystems.com/powmia/SecretArmy.html) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/56 "2003-01-25T05:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > **Canadians had the highest kill ratio of any combatants in Afghanistan. The U.S. wanted to give bronze stars to four Canadians for valor - including saving an entire company of the 10th Mountain Division that was pinned down by an al-Qaida pocket. The Canadians (and two American special forces) snuck up to within sniping range, and killed every last one of them.** Send in 4 Canadians, they kill 8 Bad Guys, Kill Ratio 1:2. And the Tooth Kill story, that’s called a “No-Shitter”. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/57 "2003-01-25T05:09:51Z")
Or Kill Ratio 2:1, depending on who is on top. ---
**Author:** ![JoltSucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@JoltSucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoltSucker)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/58 "2003-01-25T05:34:52Z")
> [@](#): > > ALERT!! Stop the thread please. What does this mean, exactly? Were there unarmed service members credited with a tooth kill? Are there other kinds of kills like this in a big book of “credited Vietnam kills” somewhere - toe kill, thumb kill, tongue kill? How did they find out his was the only tooth kill - did they have everyone coming back from the front lines fill out a form: “Did you kill anyone with your teeth? If so, check this box.” Well, the phrase “Armed Sevices” is commonly used to denote the whole of the military, i.e. Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, (and in time of war) Coast Guard. “Armed Services Member” means any soldier, sailor, or airman. I imagine this guy was pretty proud of himself, and is the only person in Vietnam who bragged to his buddies about his bite to the death. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/59 "2003-01-25T05:43:58Z")
**Tsunamisurfer:** I’ve never heard of any of that stuff. And I don’t know much about JTF-2 either. As your article says, they are very secretive. A friend of mine in the Canadian military thought quite highly of them. ---
**Author:** ![whiteboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d6d6ee/32.png) [@whiteboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whiteboy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/60 "2003-01-25T07:09:11Z")
Ok, so we invite 5 SAS’s and 5 Navy SEALS, and have them compete in a paintball tourney. Kickass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430.md?page=4)