# Who is more Formidable: Navy Seal or CIA Operative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430 "2003-01-23T14:10:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/61 "2003-01-26T02:53:04Z")
**Sam Stone** , please accept my sincere apologies for the quip about the Canadian Special Forces. I’m in no position to question the contributions, readiness, or talents of any soldier who may well have a red bulleye painted on his forehead. You’re one of the Board’s class acts. Take care, man. ---
**Author:** ![Mothchunks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@Mothchunks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mothchunks)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/62 "2003-01-27T07:02:38Z")
Actually the correct answer is Airborne Ranger. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/63 "2003-01-27T14:25:24Z")
just where do you think the CIA recruits their serious heavy duty bad ass dudes? From those who have already proven themselves like Delta, Seals, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Slugworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Slugworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slugworth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/64 "2003-01-27T21:31:57Z")
There’s also the question of, which specific navy seal or CIA operative? The CIA op that later became the basis for Apocalypse Now’s Kurtz, for example, could be considered thoroughly formidable… They dropped him into the jungle of Vietnam, and he ended up with a fanatically loyal army of natives who led attacks into China itself, illegally of course. And regarding the paintball scenario that whiteboy presents, I’d wager that me and my friends would stand a good chance against either squad. Paintball is a world apart from real combat, and soldiers from various armed forces that come out to the field expecting to dominate are regularly demolished 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/65 "2003-01-27T22:03:38Z")
I’ve been given understand that military forces frequently lose in paintball because they have been trained so thoroughly to avoid taking casualties where possible. Topnotch paintball teams have no such inhibitions, and are more willing to sacrifice team members to take positions or what have you. Of course, this may be complete bullshit, but that would hardly distinguish it from anything else in this thread. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wulfgar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Wulfgar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wulfgar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/66 "2003-01-27T22:09:20Z")
RE: Canadian Snipers > [@](#): > > _snip_ > By daylight, after coming under enemy machine-gun fire, he managed to ease his rifle barrel between two rocks and quickly located an enemy sniper hiding behind a small piece of corrugated steel between two trees. He guessed the distance at 1,700 metres and fired one shot through the metal, killing the man instantly. > _/snip_ > _snip_ > During the next four days of fighting, the Newfoundland corporal set what is believed to be a record for a long-distance shot under combat conditions, hitting an enemy gunman at a distance of 2,430 metres. > _/snip_ > > [Cite.](http://www.cavers.com/pipermail/tfr-l/2002-May/000214.html) > [@](#): > > _snip_ > The Canadian snipers so impressed the Americans they were nominated for Bronze Stars and one sniper made what is believed to be the longest shot ever recorded, a 2,430-metre hit on an al-Qaeda fighter who had pinned down U.S. Airborne troops below him. > _/snip_ > [Cite.](http://www.sciforums.com/archive/37/2002/09/4/11154) ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/67 "2003-01-27T23:30:33Z")
For anyone interested in CIA operative training, read the book _See No Evil_ by former operative Robert Baer. It’s pretty tough stuff, including, but not limited to, being able to assemble an AK 47 blindfolded, parachuting to specific points in the dead of the night, operating all types of vehicles, firing RPGs in the dark from moving vehicles, etc. Of course, as he notes, a CIA operative will probably never use any of these skills. ---
**Author:** ![Mephisto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@Mephisto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mephisto)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/68 "2003-01-27T23:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Slugworth \* > **There’s also the question of, which specific navy seal or CIA operative? The CIA op that later became the basis for Apocalypse Now’s Kurtz, for example, could be considered thoroughly formidable… They dropped him into the jungle of Vietnam, and he ended up with a fanatically loyal army of natives who led attacks into China itself, illegally of course.** Are you suggesting in the part of your post that I turned red that the events in _Apocalypse Now_ were based on real events? I always thought _Apocalypse Now_ was more-or-less Joseph Conrad’s _Heart of Darkness_ moved from turn-of-the-century Africa to the Vietnam (and Cambodia?) of the Sixties. Anyway, I remember Kurtz and the guy played by President Sheen as Army Special Forces officers, not CIA guys . . . although I that doesn’t mean they couldn’t be in the CIA’s employ. It’s been quite a while since I saw that movie, and I could only hack my way through a couple pages of the book, so apologies if I’m wrong on any of this. Or if I misinterpreted what you meant. 🙂 Oh, and **Daoloth** , thanks for the book recommendation. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![censored](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/35a633/32.png) [@censored](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/censored)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/69 "2003-01-28T01:58:24Z")
I just finished _See No Evil_. It was pretty good. There is also a giant article in TIME about the CIA’s Special Operations Group. The OP is still BS, though. ---
**Author:** ![Slugworth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4bbf92/32.png) [@Slugworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slugworth)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/70 "2003-01-28T04:44:06Z")
I first became aware of the fact that Kurtz was based on a real person in… Ok, yeah, I admit it, an article in Stuff or Maxim, or one of those testosterone rags. A search on google afterwards brought up a bunch of stuff. No clue how reliable any of it is, but I’m guessing it can’t be far off of the truth. [http://members.lycos.co.uk/Arrtus/ciabase.htm](http://members.lycos.co.uk/Arrtus/ciabase.htm) His full name is listed there, if you’d like to do further research. That was just the first thing that popped up in Google this time around. Also not sure, I guess, if the character truly was based on him or if it’s just a series of startling coincidences. ---
**Author:** ![John2525](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@John2525](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John2525)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/71 "2014-07-27T15:57:43Z")
Neither a Navy Seal nor a CIA Operative is clearly simply number one, but chances are a randomly picked Navy Seal will be more prepared for serious combat, because that is part of their primary role. But, Navy Seals are part of the Navy and the Navy’s primary role is combat oriented, while the CIA’s primary role is intelligence oriented. Navy Seals are one of the elite fighting groups and there are many organizations with elite fighting groups. Which is best can really come down to the individuals of a particular team, kind of like saying who is best at Olympic level wrestling or World Cup Football. Within the CIA, there are many kinds of operatives, many of whom are not chosen with combat as being a primary purpose. However, there are special CIA Operatives who are chosen to be the best in combat. Within the CIA **Special Activities Division** (SAD) there is a further specialized \*\*Special Operations Group \*\*(SOG). When recruiting members for CIA SAD/SOG, they frequently recruit ex-military personnel and veterans of military special operations units such as the Green Berets or Marine Force Recon. The Maritime Branch of SAD/SOG will recruit from **ex-SEALs** and **ex-Force Recon Marines**. So, a CIA Operative might be a long experienced Navy Seal who has undergone even more special training. So neither is simply better than the other. Both are very competent at what they do and when the focus is combat oriented both will be very, very dangerous to the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![rsat3acr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a3d4f5/32.png) [@rsat3acr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsat3acr)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/72 "2014-07-27T16:08:48Z")
**John2525** welcome to SDMB be advised this thread is 11 years old(refered to as a zombie) and many folk aren’t around anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/73 "2014-07-27T16:13:53Z")
I would hope the OP watched the noted documentary _Burn Notice_ on the USA channel. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/74 "2014-07-27T16:40:36Z")
> [@John2525](#): > > Within the CIA **Special Activities Division** (SAD) there is a further specialized \*\*Special Operations Group \*\*(SOG). When recruiting members for CIA SAD/SOG, they frequently recruit ex-military personnel and veterans of military special operations units such as the Green Berets or Marine Force Recon. Now there’s an opportunity wasted. If they’d name it Special Operation Battalion or something like this, they could call themselves CIA SAD SOBs. Or SAD SODs if they’d gone with Special Operations Division. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/75 "2014-07-27T19:47:41Z")
Why is it that you can pick out the zombie-raiser by their post title? They always have one. ---
**Author:** ![edub1309](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@edub1309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edub1309)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/76 "2014-07-28T02:49:58Z")
A few thoughts on this: first, SEALS are badass, no denying it. They’re warriors who are trained and conditioned to always keep going and to get whatever specialized mission that they have done. If I had to fight my way out of a village packed full of armed hostiles, I’d want a group of SEALS protecting my six. Hands down. That being said, the CIA is, well, the CIA. They’re thinkers. They take a problem, and come up with a solution. That solution could be based on deception, or even brute force. They have every available resource imaginable at their disposal. And they know how to use people. This is an important point. A SEAL will gladly put one through a bad guys head. Bad guy isn’t a problem any longer. A CIA operative? He’ll break the guy. He’ll dig up dirt, deceive, and manipulate him until he owns him. Until the guy feels as though he owes his very existence to the guy. Because at any time he can be killed. His secrets can be released. He can suffer. A SEAL is respectable and duty bound. They have strict roe’s (just look at the Lone Survivor movie/book). The CIA operative? He’ll use your family. He’ll use your friends. He’ll use your neighbor. So overall I vote CIA. But the parameters are so ill defined it hardly matters. Because the CIA employs thousands of people, and spend billions a year on projects. An analyst isn’t exactly a clandestine operative. Final food for thought: the CIA has something called the Special Activities Division. Within they have a paramilitary wing called the Special Operations Group. These men are handpicked seals, delta, and recon men. The best of the best. With much better support behind them then seals often have. Then again, the CIA cares deeply about saving face. And they won’t always come after you when shit gets heavy. In their defense they do warn you about this, however. ---
**Author:** ![Vaevictis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f04885/32.png) [@Vaevictis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaevictis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/77 "2014-07-28T03:51:55Z")
Right on!!! And all these bad ass special forces is why we conquered and held Iraq and Afghanistan, defended South Vietnam from communism and did not have to fight to a draw in Korea. Hoo-Hah! And defeated German and Japanese fascism as well! Never mind that in the WWII wins special forces were trivial and in the Korea draw not a big deal either. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/78 "2014-07-28T04:47:33Z")
> [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](#): > > [Hijack] I have seen on TV, and even met a few SAS members. What supprised me was that they were of fairly normal physique. These people were able to pass off as normal citizens in undercover operations without looking in any way dangerous. > Do the seals have similar characteristics, or are they more Ramboesque. In real life, most Special Operations warriors don’t look anything like Rambo. Richard Marchincko, the founder of SEAL TEAM SIX specifically said in his autobiography that guys built like that always washed out real quickly. They’re far more concerned with endurance, brains, and mental toughness than looking like a linebacker or an action movie star. I’m pretty sure that’s true with the Green Berets, Spetznaz and just about all other special units throughout the world. As to the original question, unless the CIA operatives somehow have the drop on them, the SEAL wins, but meaning no disrespect to the OP, but in the real world there’s no such thing as a fair fight so such questions make no sense. One kid with a rocket can easily shoot down a helicopter full of SEALs, SAS troopers, or Delta operators. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/79 "2014-07-28T04:53:01Z")
> [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](#): > > The Navy seals aren’t really recognized the most elite fighting force in the world, this title usually belongs to the British SAS, the elite force in the French foreign legion or one of the Israeli elite forces (I forget which one). Probably Sayeret Matkal. And it is hard to say which is better, since there are never any apples to apples comparison situations. And I do get caught by zombie threads too often. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430/80 "2014-07-28T05:07:36Z")
The groups have different missions. I don’t think it’s comparing apples to oranges, it’s more like comparing tomatoes to suspension bridges. And I imagine if the CIA does need some heavy duty military types, they can easily have some Special Forces, Marine Recon, Navy Seals, Delta Forces, etc. seconded to them. And those military groups probably get some of their mission intel from the CIA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-formidable-navy-seal-or-cia-operative/150430.md?page=5)