# Who is more likely to be able to live without the other? Liberals or Conservatives? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514 "2017-06-21T06:04:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/1 "2017-06-21T06:04:25Z")
This is pure speculation and will never happen, but imagine that all the people in the US were warped to an identical set of twin worlds to live, but the population would be split where all the liberals and all the conservatives would be put on different worlds. For the people right in the center, they could be given a choice in a sort of purgatory and decide which world they wanted to move to. For one, which society do you think would be more prosperous and robust? There would still be a spectrum of views of course, but shifted to the left and right, with authoritarian/libertarian impulses spread all around. Which would have a harder time thriving for the lack of the other “type” of people? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/2 "2017-06-21T06:17:25Z")
Woah, guys, I think I am actually getting mental images from these hypothetical worlds !! Here is a view from the liberal world! [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/e9/45/afe9457ef42e5ecebd97610f83e56a74.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/af/e9/45/afe9457ef42e5ecebd97610f83e56a74.jpg) And this one is from the conservative world! [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/59/42/e8594209b3927924d3a03a2164f5547d.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/59/42/e8594209b3927924d3a03a2164f5547d.jpg) Mad Max would be so proud! I KID the conservatives. I’m sure it would be a bit more built up. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/3 "2017-06-21T06:37:54Z")
Are we talking about a hypothetical America, suddenly rid of the 65 million or so Clinton voters and their kin, but otherwise still in a world like today, with Canadians to the north, Mexicans to the south, etc, or are we talking about all of us conservatives transported to some new place, to start over from scratch? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/4 "2017-06-21T06:42:03Z")
How is this different from just asking “Which is better?” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/5 "2017-06-21T06:55:02Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > For one, which society do you think would be more prosperous and robust? Socially or fiscally liberal? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/6 "2017-06-21T07:06:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are we talking about a hypothetical America, suddenly rid of the 65 million or so Clinton voters and their kin, but otherwise still in a world like today, with Canadians to the north, Mexicans to the south, etc, or are we talking about all of us conservatives transported to some new place, to start over from scratch? From scratch, only humans around ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/7 "2017-06-21T08:57:23Z")
In practice, what happens (in either case) is: Unchecked and unchallenged by the opposition, The Party does not only the stuff they’re good at, but also a significant amount of the stuff they’re bad at. Supporters become disillusioned by this and either: [ul] [li]Revolt, and from the resulting social, economic and political upheaval, opposing factions arise that somewhat resemble the original two-party system[/li][li]Splinter peaceably into opposing parties.[/li][/ul] IOW: nature abhors a vacuum; the system reinvents itself in a fairly short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/8 "2017-06-21T08:57:40Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > From scratch, only humans around I’d argue that the liberals would perhaps do _marginally_ better (a lot more scientists and strong thinkers among them), but would very, very quickly become a lot more conservative. There seem to be links between surviving in a threatening or hostile environment and conservative thought. As Scott Alexander put it in the “[Thrive/Survive Theory of the political spectrum](http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/04/a-thrivesurvive-theory-of-the-political-spectrum/)”: > [@](#): > > I propose that the best way for leftists to get themselves in a rightist frame of mind is to imagine there is a zombie apocalypse tomorrow. It is a very big zombie apocalypse and it doesn’t look like it’s going to be one of those ones where a plucky band just has to keep themselves alive until the cavalry ride in and restore order. This is going to be one of your long-term zombie apocalypses. What are you going to want? > > First and most important, guns. Lots and lots of guns. Second, you’re going to have a deep and abiding affection for the military and the police. You’re going to hope that the government has given them a lot of funding over the past few years. > […] > > In other words, “take actions that would be beneficial to survival in case of a zombie apocalypse” seems to get us rightist positions on a lot of issues. We can generalize from zombie apocalypses to any desperate conditions in which you’re not sure that you’re going to make it and need to succeed at any cost. The fact that we’d be “starting from scratch” would shift our political leanings quite heavily. Gun control makes a lot less sense if you need to hunt for your food or fend off wild bears. Laissez-faire do-what-you-want freedom leaves the margins for survival that much more marginal than a clear heirarchical control structure where everyone knows what they’re supposed to do and does it. And so on and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/9 "2017-06-21T09:00:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Socially or fiscally liberal? Both ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/10 "2017-06-21T09:26:26Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Both Then the liberal one - I’m seeing a society that’s pretty much like Scandanavia, there. Whereas the Conservative one (based on the current US conservative agenda), with laissez-faire economics, no environmental regulation, no social welfare, reduction of most civil liberties except guns, religious intolerance - I don’t see it being a very sustainable place. Continued large wealth disparities and terrible living conditions for the masses, historically, are a recipe for discord. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/11 "2017-06-21T09:27:38Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Woah, guys, I think I am actually getting mental images from these hypothetical worlds !! A stereotype which seems true IME is that engineers lean hard right/libertarian, so good luck building that fancy stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/12 "2017-06-21T09:32:43Z")
I ran this through a computer simulation and found that most liberal voters would be aborted by their parents at the exact time that most conservatives die in the same hunting accident. 100% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/13 "2017-06-21T09:43:27Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > A stereotype which seems true IME is that engineers lean hard right/libertarian, so good luck building that fancy stuff. The distribution isn’t 95%:5%. There are enough liberal US engineers to get by. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/14 "2017-06-21T10:32:39Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > A stereotype which seems true IME is that engineers lean hard right/libertarian, so good luck building that fancy stuff. Has anyone done an actual survey in different engineering fields to see the actual percentage of conservatives to liberals? And even there, I bet the number of social conservative engineers is infinitesimally small and looked upon like some sorts of bestial creatures to be shunned and spat out. And even if the conservatives had a few more engineers (certainly not more tech engineers), the liberals DEFINITELY have more scientists. If we skipped ahead a million years, I wonder if we’d see a repeat of the time machine, could this be the later stages of human life and civilization after a seed stock of conservative governance? [http://www.tombsofkobol.com/images/classic/tmweb008.jpg](http://www.tombsofkobol.com/images/classic/tmweb008.jpg) And how would the liberal world turn out after a million years? I’m going to assume this. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/IOOoiQwSd5I/maxresdefault.jpg "Babylon 5 - This is how the world ends. [HD]") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOOoiQwSd5I) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/15 "2017-06-21T10:35:32Z")
Is there going to be some sort of magical totalitarian constraint that keeps it Liberal or Conservative? (but somehow also provides sufficient flex for it to function)? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/16 "2017-06-21T10:41:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Is there going to be some sort of magical totalitarian constraint that keeps it Liberal or Conservative? (but somehow also provides sufficient flex for it to function)? No, this is just about starting conditions, but much like a chaotic system, perhaps that will be enough to generate wildly divergent results. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/17 "2017-06-21T10:43:46Z")
If one group disappears, the remaining group will find that some issue that was trivial when there was an enemy around is now insurmountable, and break up into two or more quarreling groups. This will repeat fractally. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/18 "2017-06-21T11:23:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I’d argue that the liberals would perhaps do _marginally_ better (a lot more scientists and strong thinkers among them), but would very, very quickly become a lot more conservative. There seem to be links between surviving in a threatening or hostile environment and conservative thought. As Scott Alexander put it in the “[Thrive/Survive Theory of the political spectrum](http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/04/a-thrivesurvive-theory-of-the-political-spectrum/)”: > > The fact that we’d be “starting from scratch” would shift our political leanings quite heavily. Gun control makes a lot less sense if you need to hunt for your food or fend off wild bears. Laissez-faire do-what-you-want freedom leaves the margins for survival that much more marginal than a clear heirarchical control structure where everyone knows what they’re supposed to do and does it. And so on and so forth. What threats? Almost all the threats we have to deal with are from are fellow humans, not wild bears. I see the liberal world eventually ending up something like the Federation from Star Trek. In fact, if it weren’t for isolationist type thinking, I think our actual current world was headed in that direction. Trump and his kind (including in other countries) have unfortunately ruined that vision of the future. The conservative world, being mostly conservative Christian, would most likely end up like a Christian version of Iran. If civil war were to break out at some point, it would be more likely in the conservative version than the liberal version. It should be obvious which one I’d choose. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/19 "2017-06-21T11:39:14Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > What threats? What threats would you encounter if you had to rebuild civilization from the ground up? Wildlife, because predators haven’t been as relegated to far-off places. Disease, because widespread medical care needs to be reinvented. We’re fast, but we’re not magic - modern medical care would be a couple years coming. Starvation as well - agriculture is hard, and I wonder how many people know how to farm effectively. This wouldn’t be a cakewalk, and we’d be in for a few years of surviving. Many probably wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514/20 "2017-06-21T12:19:16Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > No, this is just about starting conditions, but much like a chaotic system, perhaps that will be enough to generate wildly divergent results. OK, I’m going to stick with “the system reverts to something functionally similar to what we have now”. I’d say the timeline for that is a small number of decades, and the process is anything from peaceful reform, to all-out war. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-likely-to-be-able-to-live-without-the-other-liberals-or-conservatives/789514.md?page=2)