# Who is more "open minded": Religious folks or non believers? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 17, 2016, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037 "2016-05-17T22:06:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/61 "2016-05-19T02:45:13Z")
Militant atheists and fundamental Christians are more close-minded than just about anyone. Those with an extremely strong belief that they’re right and everyone else is wrong are simply unable to be open-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/62 "2016-05-19T03:18:45Z")
There are about a million different kinds of atheists. “Militant” atheists may be politically militant, trying to get the phrase about God off of our coins, get crosses out of public hilltop parks, get the Ten Commandments out of courtrooms, etc. Their militancy is not necessarily part of their belief system, but their stance regarding public endorsement of religious establishments. I’m the kind of atheist who believes that the “infinite” God cannot exist, because the term “infinity” can never actually apply to an existing thing or set of things. We can speak of infinity in mathematics, but God cannot be able to lift an “infinite” weight, nor can God know an “infinite” amount of data. A really powerful entity – powerful enough to be called a god, or even a God – might exist, but an Omnipotent and/or Omniscient God cannot exist, unless you’re willing to scrap the rules of logical self-contradiction. I think this makes me neither “militant” nor “closed-minded.” If you operate from a premise that logical propositions may contradict themselves, that doesn’t make you closed-minded either. You just hold a different faith-based premise about reality. (But I do want the slogan off the coins and the crosses off the hilltops, and I’m pretty damn militant about that!) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/63 "2016-05-19T03:21:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > There are consequences of and corollaries to a belief that there is no God, which you choose to believe, whatever they happen to be. That is the very definition of a belief system. You can claim that you don’t have one on that score, but whether you realize it or not, you do. I also have a belief that the Earth isn’t flat. Is that _also_ a “belief system” and, if so, what are the consequences I am facing? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/64 "2016-05-19T03:25:57Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Militant atheists and fundamental Christians are more close-minded than just about anyone. Those with an extremely strong belief that they’re right and everyone else is wrong are simply unable to be open-minded. Militant atheists? What makes an atheist “militant”? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/65 "2016-05-19T03:28:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Being close-minded has nothing to do with a person’s religious beliefs or disbeliefs. Yeah, this. I’m a pretty “hard” atheist, and also pretty open minded. I’ve got friends who are Mormons, 9/11 hoaxers, and vegans (not generally all at the same time). I’m absolutely, dead certain they are wrong about certain issues they deem very important. That doesn’t mean I can’t be friends with them. Agreeing with everyone doesn’t make you open minded, it just makes you spineless. Being able to put aside your differences and get along with folks who aren’t like you is what being open-minded means. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/66 "2016-05-19T03:30:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you think that having an open mind about something means you have to accept it? I’ve read the entire Bible, cover to cover - both the real part and the Christian part. I studied Eastern religions in college. My understanding of them is clearly better than your level of understanding about atheism, which is pretty much zero. > \*\*Grrr! \*\* clearly said that he was accused of being closed minded, not that he was close-minded. So I think an apology is in order. It seems absolutely incredible to me that **Shodan** ’s post #32, which was a direct response to **Grrr!**'s post #21, just changing Christian to atheist (#21 stating that “If you’re a Christian who is willing to have an open mind to view points outside your own, you’re not really a Christian.”) and people are losing their freaking minds thinking that **Shodan** is saying atheists aren’t open minded because he thinks they don’t look outside their world view… when all he was doing was parroting **Grrr!**'s logic back at him. People really do see what they want to see sometimes, but that one was quite striking to me. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/67 "2016-05-19T04:28:30Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > It seems absolutely incredible to me that **Shodan** ’s post #32, which was a direct response to **Grrr!**'s post #21, just changing Christian to atheist (#21 stating that “If you’re a Christian who is willing to have an open mind to view points outside your own, you’re not really a Christian.”) and people are losing their freaking minds thinking that **Shodan** is saying atheists aren’t open minded because he thinks they don’t look outside their world view… when all he was doing was parroting **Grrr!**'s logic back at him. > > People really do see what they want to see sometimes, but that one was quite striking to me. The symmetry that you see between the two comments is false. A prominent feature of Christianity is “faith” - maintaining belief _without_ or _despite_ evidence. **Grrr!** pointed out that Christian “faith” thus makes a virtue of having a closed mind. **Shodan** ’s comment claimed that an atheist who is not receptive to other people’s _opinions_ has an equally closed mind. Not so. When we are considering truth claims about objective reality, _opinions_ are not the same as _evidence_. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/68 "2016-05-19T10:28:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Militant atheists? What makes an atheist “militant”? They spend the same amount of time and effort trying to force others to admit that there is no God as fundies do trying to convert people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/69 "2016-05-19T11:14:53Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > They spend the same amount of time and effort trying to force others to admit that there is no God as fundies do trying to convert people. 1. I have _never_ seen atheists go door-to-door trying to convert people or protest in front of churches on Sunday mornings. Which atheists are you talking about? 2. Why don’t Christians who do these things get the label “militant”? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/70 "2016-05-19T11:19:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Militant atheists? What makes an atheist “militant”? A militant atheist killed my uncle Bob (War On Christmas, Battle Of The Crèche). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/71 "2016-05-19T11:28:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I also have a belief that the Earth isn’t flat. Is that _also_ a “belief system” and, if so, what are the consequences I am facing? That’s part of a belief system called _science_. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/72 "2016-05-19T11:30:31Z")
I don’t care what the American Atheist Association says, they’re spreading disinformation. If you accept that you don’t know but you think there is/are no god(s) you are an atheist. If you accept that you don’t know but think a god _could_ exist, you are an agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/73 "2016-05-19T11:43:58Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > That’s part of a belief system called _science_. I think we’ll just stick with the standard definitions, but thank you for your rather interesting variation. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/74 "2016-05-19T11:47:18Z")
As far as so-called “militant atheism” is concerned, go look up the term “militant Christianity”. When you see atheists act like _that_, you can call them “militant”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/75 "2016-05-19T12:21:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > **Shodan** ’s comment claimed that an atheist who is not receptive to other people’s _opinions_ has an equally closed mind. **Grrr!** claimed that an open-minded Christian isn’t a Christian, but rather an agnostic. Being open-minded makes you an agnostic. Ergo, an open-minded atheist isn’t an atheist either. He or she must be an agnostic. If you would like to explain how being an open-minded Christian makes you an agnostic, but being an open-minded atheist doesn’t, feel free. Good luck - it’s the “no true Scotsman” argument, and it doesn’t generally work. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![krunen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@krunen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krunen)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/76 "2016-05-19T12:26:36Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I don’t care what the American Atheist Association says, they’re spreading disinformation. If you accept that you don’t know but you think there is/are no god(s) you are an atheist. If you accept that you don’t know but think a god _could_ exist, you are an agnostic. I don’t think about god, except in sociological terms. I am “without god” - an a-theist. What do you think I should call myself instead? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/77 "2016-05-19T12:28:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Grrr!** claimed that an open-minded Christian isn’t a Christian, but rather an agnostic. Being open-minded makes you an agnostic. Ergo, an open-minded atheist isn’t an atheist either. He or she must be an agnostic. > > If you would like to explain how being an open-minded Christian makes you an agnostic, but being an open-minded atheist doesn’t, feel free. Good luck - it’s the “no true Scotsman” argument, and it doesn’t generally work. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s easy. Because Atheists aren’t bond by aren’t bond by rules nor have they taken a solemn oath to anything. An Atheist mind changes when presented with new data or information. A Christian, OTOH, makes a promise to keep believing in this certain thing despite evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/78 "2016-05-19T12:32:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > I don’t care what the American Atheist Association says, they’re spreading disinformation. What type of “disinformation”? In service of what? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/79 "2016-05-19T12:34:19Z")
Beats hell out of me. Ask them. a\*theos = ‘without gods’ a\*gnosis = ‘without knowledge’ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2016, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037/80 "2016-05-19T12:46:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Do you think that having an open mind about something means you have to accept it? No. But **Grrr!** thinks that having an open mind about something means you are an agnostic. OK, let’s accept that for the purposes of discussion. An open-minded Christian is an agnostic, because he or she is open-minded. An open-minded atheist is, therefore, a contradiction in terms. Either he or she is open-minded, and is therefore an agnostic, or is not open-minded. FWIW, **Grrr!**'s definition is pretty flawed, and pointing that out was the purpose of my posts. If there is no evidence for a proposition, that proposition is neither true nor false - it is unproven. Assuming it’s true is an act of faith. So is assuming it’s false. Is Schrödinger’s cat alive or dead? If you think it’s dead, no amount of “prove it’s alive!” establishes anything. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-more-open-minded-religious-folks-or-non-believers/755037.md?page=5)