Who is more "open minded": Religious folks or non believers?

[QuickSilver]

@Johnny_Ace

Beats hell out of me. Ask them.

a*theos = ‘without gods’

a*gnosis = ‘without knowledge’

You want me to ask them why Johnny Ace thinks they are spreading disinformation?

I’m genuinely curious about what disinformation you believe AAA is spreading. Perhaps they are and I simply don’t know it.

[kayaker]

@Shodan

Is Schrödinger’s cat alive or dead?

That’s neither here nor there.

[Grrr]

@Shodan

No. But Grrr! thinks that having an open mind about something means you are an agnostic. OK, let’s accept that for the purposes of discussion. An open-minded Christian is an agnostic, because he or she is open-minded. An open-minded atheist is, therefore, a contradiction in terms. Either he or she is open-minded, and is therefore an agnostic, or is not open-minded.

An open mind means a willingness to change one’s world view. An Atheist can do that with out issue. A Christian OTOH can not do that with out betraying the principles of their faith.

I can believe something to be true with out being married to the idea. Can Christians do that?

[Shodan]

@Grrr

I can believe something to be true with out being married to the idea. Can Christians do that?

Is an open-minded Christian a Christian, or an agnostic? Is an open-minded atheist an atheist, or an agnostic?

Or is this statement -

If you’re a Christian who is willing to have an open mind to view points outside your own, you’re not really a Christian. You’re an Agnostic that leans towards Christianity.

false?

Regards,
Shodan

[QuickSilver]

Reasonable people of either stripe would be forced to change their position on the matter when presented with contrary incontrovertible evidence. I don’t know why it would be significantly more difficult for a Christian than an atheist.

[Thudlow_Boink]

It never fails: every Great Debates thread on religion eventually turns into an argument over the meaning of the word “atheist.”

Wait, we’re in IMHO?

Okay: Every thread…

[Shodan]

@Thudlow_Boink

It never fails: every Great Debates thread on religion eventually turns into an argument over the meaning of the word “atheist.”

Wait, we’re in IMHO?

Okay: Every thread…

CITE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Regards,
Shodan

[Grrr]

@Shodan

Is an open-minded Christian a Christian, or an agnostic? Is an open-minded atheist an atheist, or an agnostic?

Or is this statement -
false?

Regards,
Shodan

Those two statements are not in conflict.

Atheist: “I believe their is no God. Show me proof of this magical being, and I will change my mind”

Agnostic: “I don’t know if there is a God. The arguments for and against His existence seem plausible to me”

Christian: “I don’t care what the science says. I know in my heart, God is real”
As far as agnostics go, there is a spectrum from believing and not believing. One who call himself a Christian, but is open to the idea that he may be wrong about His existence, is in fact, an Agnostic.

[Czarcasm]

@Shodan

Is an open-minded Christian a Christian, or an agnostic? Is an open-minded atheist an atheist, or an agnostic?

Or is this statement -
false?

What do you mean when you use the term “open minded”?
When I use it, I mean “open to accept any evidence presented, without prejudice”.

[kayaker]

@Czarcasm

What do you mean when you use the term “open minded”?
When I use it, I mean “open to accept any evidence presented, without prejudice”.

I think you might want “credible” btwn “any” and “evidence”.

[Czarcasm]

@kayaker

I think you might want “credible” btwn “any” and “evidence”.

Or maybe “verifiable”. Definitely not “My evidence of God is Rainbows and Baby Ducks and Daisies!”.

[Bricker]

@Czarcasm

What do you mean when you use the term “open minded”?
When I use it, I mean “open to accept any evidence presented, without prejudice”.

Richard Feynman said:

Millikan measured the charge on an electron by an experiment with falling oil drops and got an answer which we now know not to be quite right. It’s a little bit off, because he had the incorrect value for the viscosity of air. It’s interesting to look at the history of measurements of the charge of the electron, after Millikan. If you plot them as a function of time, you find that one is a little bigger than Millikan’s, and the next one’s a little bit bigger than that, and the next one’s a little bit bigger than that, until finally they settle down to a number which is higher.

Why didn’t they discover that the new number was higher right away? It’s a thing that scientists are ashamed of—this history—because it’s apparent that people did things like this: When they got a number that was too high above Millikan’s, they thought something must be wrong—and they would look for and find a reason why something might be wrong. When they got a number closer to Millikan’s value they didn’t look so hard. And so they eliminated the numbers that were too far off, and did other things like that.

I suggest that this tendency exists among atheists also, when atheists consider evidence.

However, when it comes to religion, I agree that atheists can be fairly described to be occupying the evidence-based ground more so than theists.

[Czarcasm]

@Bricker

I suggest that this tendency exists among atheists also, when atheists consider evidence.

When you say that there may be a “tendency”, this certainly implies that you seen examples of this happening. Could you maybe show us one or two?

[ISiddiqui]

@Riemann

The symmetry that you see between the two comments is false. A prominent feature of Christianity is “faith” - maintaining belief without or despite evidence. Grrr! pointed out that Christian “faith” thus makes a virtue of having a closed mind.

Shodan’s comment claimed that an atheist who is not receptive to other people’s opinions has an equally closed mind.

Not so. When we are considering truth claims about objective reality, opinions are not the same as evidence.

So… is my entire church (just about) not really Christian, but just agnostics who lean Christian? (ELCA, for what it’s worth)

Or… can we, as Voyager pointed out, not have to accept everything we read to have an open mind about it?

I think this board tends to have a very close minded view towards Christians, and equate all Christians with the worst stereotypes that atheists have, and comments like that seem to cement that to me.

(FTR, not every Christian necessary equates faith with belief per se, the original Greek term ‘pistis’ is closer to our English work trust, rather than belief. The trust requires some belief sure, but it’s a very different result in practice)

[Czarcasm]

@ISiddiqui

So… is my entire church (just about) not really Christian, but just agnostics who lean Christian? (ELCA, for what it’s worth)

Or… can we, as Voyager pointed out, not have to accept everything we read to have an open mind about it?

I think this board tends to have a very close minded view towards Christians, and equate all Christians with the worst stereotypes that atheists have, and comments like that seem to cement that to me.

Is that really what you see when you read this thread? I’m seeing give and take on both sides-why aren’t you?

[ISiddiqui]

@Grrr

Atheist: “I believe their is no God. Show me proof of this magical being, and I will change my mind”

Agnostic: “I don’t know if there is a God. The arguments for and against His existence seem plausible to me”

Christian: “I don’t care what the science says. I know in my heart, God is real”
As far as agnostics go, there is a spectrum from believing and not believing. One who call himself a Christian, but is open to the idea that he may be wrong about His existence, is in fact, an Agnostic.

And this clearly indicates what I was saying. Maybe it is anecdotal, but I don’t know anyone in my own church who would say what you impart to the “Christian”. We may believe or trust that God is real, but God creates the universe and science is a study of that universe. We may believe that science doesn’t fully explain the universe and we may believe that we don’t know the full story of God. Not every Christian denomination or church goes full bore anti-science. A lot don’t.

[ISiddiqui]

@Czarcasm

Is that really what you see when you read this thread? I’m seeing give and take on both sides-why aren’t you?

Because I see the disproportionate response to Shodan compared to the response to Grrr! and realize there really isn’t no give and take on both sides.

[Czarcasm]

@ISiddiqui

Because I see the disproportionate response to Shodan compared to the response to Grrr! and realize there really isn’t no give and take on both sides.

So you are upset that there isn’t some sort of fake “balance” when people respond to either side of a debate? Isn’t it even slightly possible that Shodan’s post, by it’s confusing and slightly antagonistic nature, rightly earned the responses it got? Also, considering the fact that his post was a response to Grr!'s post, subsequent responses were just a continuation of the debate between the two of them.

[Grrr]

@ISiddiqui

And this clearly indicates what I was saying. Maybe it is anecdotal, but I don’t know anyone in my own church who would say what you impart to the “Christian”. We may believe or trust that God is real, but God creates the universe and science is a study of that universe. We may believe that science doesn’t fully explain the universe and we may believe that we don’t know the full story of God. Not every Christian denomination or church goes full bore anti-science. A lot don’t.

That’s just an easy way to hand wave away any science that disproves the bible or God.

God created the universe, and therefore God created science. So any science that would disprove his existence, is in itself, just a creation of God.

I can’t even begin to think of a more close minded argument. It leaves absolutely no room for debate.

[Czarcasm]

@ISiddiqui

And this clearly indicates what I was saying. Maybe it is anecdotal, but I don’t know anyone in my own church who would say what you impart to the “Christian”. We may believe or trust that God is real, but God creates the universe and science is a study of that universe. We may believe that science doesn’t fully explain the universe and we may believe that we don’t know the full story of God. Not every Christian denomination or church goes full bore anti-science. A lot don’t.

1. Neither you, your religion(whatever it is), or your church(whatever it is) has been brought up in this thread as far as I know. Which brings us to,
2. No one here is saying every Christian denomination or church goes full bore anti-science.