# Who is Obama kidding? My take on his FISA statement (telecom immunity). **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380 "2008-07-05T15:22:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/21 "2008-07-05T22:04:16Z")
Not everyone at DailyKos is screaming that the Kool-Aid is poisoned. [Here’s a thoughttful analysis](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/5/141534/5991/564/525227) of the current brouhaha by a hard-left member who’s not disillusioned by Obama because he wasn’t illusioned in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/22 "2008-07-05T23:47:06Z")
[QUOTE=Lama Pacos] The voters Obama chances losing are not Democratic shills, but independent voters (such as myself) who don’t give two whits about the strength of the Democratic party, but who thought they could maybe vote for _this_ Democrat-- and are increasingly thinking otherwise. To such voters, quaint factors like the policies a candidate supports are not of little import. [/QUOTE] By the way, I meant to ask: Have you studied the details of the positions Obama lays out at his website? Have you read _The Audacity of Hope_? Because those sources will provide you with a much better, more nuanced and fact-based understanding of the man and his policies than anything the media or the message boards provide. One of the things that attracts me to him as a candidate is that he isn’t sound-bitable; he thinks through the implications of problems and policies, and looks for routes to solutions that go as far as pragmatically possible to do the job while at the same time getting as many people on board as possible, not just one segment of the ideological spectrum. I credit his service as a community organizer as a training ground for this approach, which I consider necessary to break through the partisan bullshit that currently paralyzes D.C. I think this is the only workable approach to even beginning to fix the horrendous mess that will confront the next President, and I’m willing to live with the fact that such an approach will not always meet with my own policy stands. But then, I’m a pragmatic Independent rather than an ideologically driven leftist and/or Democrat. True, the policies I prefer happen to fall more to the left of the political spectrum, and I believe that entrusting control of the government to the Democrats seems necessary to achieve those policies at this time in political history. This does not, however, irrevocably tie me in lockstep with that party. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/23 "2008-07-06T00:59:04Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] …One of the things that attracts me to him as a candidate is that he isn’t sound-bitable… [/QUOTE] Indicative of a good President, not so hot for a candidate. He is thoughtful and complex, which would be OK if he could hide it better. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/24 "2008-07-06T04:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Lightnin’] So how did the other guy vote on FISA? Oh, that’s right. McCain didn’t even show up to vote on it. _That’s_ how important it is to him. At least Obama’s trying to do something. [/QUOTE] Ah the joys of a two party system. You don’t have to do anything good - you just have to be slightly less horrible than the other guy. That’s comforting. “Sure, they’ll both take a dump on you, but at least this guy won’t rape your mom too!” I personally hate to see the companies rewarded for cowardly caving in. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/25 "2008-07-06T15:21:52Z")
Ah, I see. Not being punished = being rewarded. Look, I’m angry at the telecom companies. But they were informed by the President of the U.S. that this was a fully lawful request. I know about and laud Qwest for its decision to question this further, but apparently the rest of them were too scared or dumb to do it. What matters to me is to get FISA back in control. If letting the telecoms off the hook (still leaving the _government_ on the hook!) is the price of this, I’ll take it. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/26 "2008-07-06T16:47:24Z")
[QUOTE=SenorBeef] Ah the joys of a two party system. You don’t have to do anything good - you just have to be slightly less horrible than the other guy. That’s comforting. “Sure, they’ll both take a dump on you, but at least this guy won’t rape your mom too!” [/QUOTE] It bugs the hell out of me, too. I wish we had a multiple-party system so we could force the parties to actually compete against the other guy, who’s competing against the \*other \*guy. Maybe then, we’d get some actual differences between the candidates. My statement wasn’t meant to be a _tu quoque_ argument- I wasn’t trying to imply that it’s okay for Obama to make the deal he did, because McCain didn’t even try. I’m just tired of people trying to use this as an excuse to not vote for Obama… after all, McCain is (in my mind) even worse in this situation, so using your vote to protest against Obama is actually a vote for someone who didn’t even care enough to take a position. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/27 "2008-07-06T18:58:31Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] But they were informed by the President of the U.S. that this was a fully lawful request. I know about and laud Qwest for its decision to question this further, but apparently the rest of them were too scared or dumb to do it. What matters to me is to get FISA back in control. If letting the telecoms off the hook (still leaving the _government_ on the hook!) is the price of this, I’ll take it. [/QUOTE] For the most part, I agree with your 2nd paragraph; I’m not happy with the stance Obama has taken on this, but as I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t expect to be happy with everything he does. But I fundamentally disagree with your 1st paragraph. Glenn Greenwald makes the argument much better than I believe I could in [this opinion piece](http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/05/monarchy/). Specifically, as concerns the “lawful request”: > [@Glenn Greenwald](#): > > I would really like to know where people like Soderberg get the idea that the U.S. President has the power to “order” private citizens to do anything, let alone to break the law, as even she admits happened here…In the U.S., private actors don’t have government “commanders” who can “order” or “direct” them to do anything. Even soldiers, for whom the President is actually the Commander-in-Chief, are prohibited from obeying unlawful orders. It’s that last bit (about soldiers) that especially gets me. We (rightly) expect a soldier, who has been explicitly trained to follow orders with little question, to maintain a sense of the order’s legality or face prosecution. Yet we do not expect a corporation, with a battery of lawyers tasked specifically with knowing what is legal, to be held to even that standard? Since when does being “too scared or dumb” excuse illegality? Gah, this entire issue gets me incredibly agitated. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/28 "2008-07-06T19:08:25Z")
**Digital** , just trying to put the best possible light on it. I’m not happy about it either. In fact I’d love to see the telecoms brought up on criminal charges, which this bill would not preclude. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/29 "2008-07-06T19:57:47Z")
As well you might, **DG** , if not for context. In a turd avalanche, how do you choose the biggest and stinkiest? For me, I think the attempt to make the Justice Department into a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party is far more destructive and contemptible. And as for the legal expertise available, that cuts both ways. The Bushiviks have scads of legal academics at hand who assure them of the utter legality of actions that fly in the face of our traditions and standards. In corporate life, as you may already know, a nod is as good as a wink. If you are a corporate lawyer, you very likely already know what the most desireable opinion will be. (I know this from years of radical hippitude…) This issue will fade, either because Obama is revealed to be Osama’s stalking camel and John McBomb is elected in a shitstorm…ah, landslide…or because the Goddess shall cease to avert Her eyes and a solid majority of Dems takes power and the subpoenas begin to fly. In either case, this issue will vanish. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/30 "2008-07-06T20:51:48Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What good is clanging the dinner bell for a feeding frenzy for lawyers? [/QUOTE] :mad: Bite your typing fingers! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/31 "2008-07-06T20:53:54Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What good is clanging the dinner bell for a feeding frenzy for lawyers? [/QUOTE] :mad: Bite your typing fingers! Anyway, I see no real problem with this bill as a workable compromise. If you want to enjoy your sausage, don’t visit the meatpacking plant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/32 "2008-07-06T21:21:08Z")
I had quite forgotten about attorneys of integrity and scruple. I apologize to you both. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2008, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/33 "2008-07-06T22:55:47Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] **Digital** , just trying to put the best possible light on it. I’m not happy about it either. In fact I’d love to see the telecoms brought up on criminal charges, which this bill would not preclude. [/QUOTE] Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going after you personally. As I said, this issue gets me all het up, and the “scared or dumb” excuse was a trigger. IMO, two things need doin’ when discussing this issue: (1) accept (or at least understand) the political realities at work here and (2) **never** let it go unstated that the wiretapping was illegal and inexcusable. > [@elucidator](#): > > As well you might, **DG** , if not for context. In a turd avalanche, how do you choose the biggest and stinkiest? For me, I think the attempt to make the Justice Department into a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party is far more destructive and contemptible. I’ll assume the **DG** was a typo (could’ve been **BG** ). I admit that I suffer an acute case of outrage fatigue – to the point that whenever I see Bush on the news, I just cast my eyes downward, shake my head, and mumble, “_What a knucklehead._” Even though I agree that the “lackeys in positions of power” is a more threatening problem, there are certain things that _really_ get to me. Being a computer guy, the wiretapping issue is one of them (as is the semi-related data mining issue, as in the TIA program). I think my wife is a mite tired of listening to me rant about it, so I have to vent my spleen somewhere…and I dasn’t get my hopes up for subpoenas, lest I be in a state similar to Nov. 3rd, 2004 when they don’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/34 "2008-07-07T02:03:33Z")
[QUOTE=Oy!] Ah, I see. Not being punished = being rewarded. Look, I’m angry at the telecom companies. But they were informed by the President of the U.S. that this was a fully lawful request. I know about and laud Qwest for its decision to question this further, but apparently the rest of them were too scared or dumb to do it. [/quote] That’s the problem right there. Telcos have enormous spying powers on citizens and their powers are growing every day in the post-internet age. They cannot and should not allow themselves to cooperate unlawfully with the white house. The president’s word is not the supreme law of the land in a republic. They should be even more scared of lawsuits and fines than they are of the president. Furthermore, we’re talking potential corruption here. Several telcos received tens of billions of taxpayer money to give consumers Fiber to the home and upgrade the shamefully stagnating networks in this country (the U.S slipped from #1 to something like #18 in the past decade). They just pocketed the money and did essentially nothing. I’m not kidding! I don’t want the president telling them to cooperate in exchange for ignoring their crapulous behavior. > [@](#): > > What matters to me is to get FISA back in control. If letting the telecoms off the hook (still leaving the _government_ on the hook!) is the price of this, I’ll take it. It was never out of control. It was simply ignored out of convenience and laziness. The concept of court order to get a warrant is not hard to understand and does not take long to get through when necessary. Heck, some warrants can even be granted after the fact in emergencies I believe. This whole thing is bigger than Bush, Obama and McCain. I don’t care about punishing this administration per se. It’ll be punished when it loses the elections to the other party. I want the telcos to HEEL to the citizens they serve. Do not fuck with the citizen’s rights! That’s priority number 1. Period. I read Obama’s statement with satisfaction at first but frankly, his explanation doesn’t convince me at all. And I’m a friggin supporter who is reading (and likes) his book and wants to vote for him. But I’ll be damned if I drink the kool-aid or swallow bullshit because he’s my candidate. Note: I’m actually not bothered by his softening stance on the war. His explanations are sound and convincing and I’m perfectly happy with them. Not so with FISA, not so at all. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/35 "2008-07-10T00:15:03Z")
How is this a compromise? What did the Bush administration and those who supported them give up? No loopholes were left through which justice or even disclosure could be achieved. This was a cave-in, and not the first by the Bend Over Congress of 2006. What has this won the Democrats who are supposed to be the opposition party? Does the lowest approval rating ever, lower even than that of Bush, bode nothing for the electoral consequences of the current path? It certainly hasn’t stopped the pundits from flinging shit – it’s only given them more shit to fling. What good is advanced oversight, when the president refused to submit to even the minimal, almost obligatory oversight to begin with? Oversight has to be enforced to be any check on abuse, and this bill is a clear refusal to enforce even the least oversight. What did FISA lack for intelligence-gathering capability that it now has? It was already alarmingly fast-and-loose with our rights, and that bullet has been bitten hard and the subject is not even brought up by constitutional scholars like Glen Greenwald and Jonathan Turley. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? The supposed need for the bill is a Trojan horse. The whole point of the bill was to pass the immunity and to establish the principle that Congress will not tell the president that he must obey the law. It may not be hopeless at this point. Rumor has it that the ACLU and the EFF are going to drive it to the supreme court, because the law clearly violates the 4th amendment. But if I understand right, it only takes a judge somewhere along the line to refuse to hear the case, and even that dies. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/36 "2008-07-13T20:47:11Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] What I want is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but, which I will only get from a Dem administration with solid Congressional backing. I want to know who said what, and who did what. I want to know what congresscritters might best spend more time with thier families. And I want to demonstrate to the world the crowning glory of democracy: we can change our minds, and thereby change our country. Obama. [/QUOTE] **'Luci** , I didn’t know you were an authoritarian nowadays. I guess if you can’t beat 'em, join 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/37 "2008-07-13T21:05:32Z")
I think it’s disappointing mostly in that it makes him seem to be willing to bend to corporate interests. That’s what really pisses me off more than anything. AT&T has been screwing us over for years, so I have very little sympathy for them having spied on us. I’m sure all of the appropriate people in the right places made a nice little tit for tat when it became necessary. We spy for you but you better help us out later, kind of thing. That’s what concerns me here. It appears that Obama is capitulating on his promise to not let corporate interests run the government. That’s what basically pisses me off there. It remains to be seen how he behaves in the future, but I’m worried in general. As far as the logic of the way things go, I see the point. The telcos were being told by the feds to do this stuff, and they complied. But it just goes down to the point that ATT doesn’t really give a shit about anything at all other than money. They consider their customers to be garbage and had no qualms about taking away their rights. You show me that there was some kind of serious external pressure and I might change my mind but knowing how ridiculous ATT is, I find it hard to believe they actually gave a shit. And you can substitude any random telco company here for ATT. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/38 "2008-07-13T21:21:08Z")
The knee slapper is that FISA is a secret, rubber stamping court. That fight was lost decades ago. Why even have a fig leaf? Why pretend? Have some dignity. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2008, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/39 "2008-07-13T22:08:34Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] **'Luci** , I didn’t know you were an authoritarian nowadays. I guess if you can’t beat 'em, join 'em. [/QUOTE] I have absolutely no idea what motivated you to turn my simple statement inside out. I am not aware that I have done you any injury. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380/40 "2008-07-14T01:37:35Z")
I wrote a letter to Obama a while back. Just got the answer. I figure it might shed some light on things. Care to read? > [@](#): > > Dear Friend, > > Thank you for contacting us and sharing your strong feelings about this important issue. Please find a statement from Senator Obama below. > > We appreciate hearing from you. > > Sincerely, > > Obama for America, > > * * * > > Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people. There is also little doubt that the Bush Administration, with the cooperation of major telecommunications companies, has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution by intercepting the communications of innocent Americans without their knowledge or the required court orders. > > That is why last year I opposed the so-called Protect America Act, which expanded the surveillance powers of the government without sufficient independent oversight to protect the privacy and civil liberties of innocent Americans. I have also opposed the granting of retroactive immunity to those who were allegedly complicit in acts of illegal spying in the past. > > After months of negotiation, the House passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year’s Protect America Act. Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President’s illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. > > It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I voted in the Senate three times to remove this provision so that we could seek full accountability for past offenses. Unfortunately, these attempts were unsuccessful. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act. > > It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-obama-kidding-my-take-on-his-fisa-statement-telecom-immunity/455380.md?page=3)