# Who is Satan? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551 "2011-03-13T17:19:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/21 "2011-03-14T15:15:18Z")
I know on this subject you bring up Job a lot. Job is the one who figures out, through trials, that it is not God punishing him but Satan masquerading as God, while everyone tells Job that God is being hard on you. Job knows the truth and sticks with it. One possible explanation to the trials of Job is God and Satan were competing for who would be Job’s father (spiritual father), perhaps Job was a child of the devil (possible, as pharisees were ID’s as children of the devil by Jesus) that God wanted to rescue and adopt. This would cause the contest, Satan thinking that Job would blame (curse) God and continue to be his (spiritual) father. The serpent in A&E as I pointed out has been ID’s 2x in Revelation as Satan, but that’s not the end of it. There is a process of ‘oneness’ that happens, 2 beings becoming one. This is the process of God living inside man, God and man are one. This is also the process of the serpent (a animal) and Satan living as one in the same body (also the process of demonic possession mentioned many times in the NT, sometimes with many being s inside the one flesh). We can see a example of this this in the new testament where Jesus turns to Peter and says ‘get behind me Satan’. At that moment Peter and Satan were sharing the same body - they were one with each other. So that serpent was one with the devil, it appears so Satan could have a physical body so as to talk with Eve, but also, very important, so the serpent (the animal) can take the blame, making Satan blameless and therefor not under the judgment of God. In scriptures we see this in the scapegoat (OT), and the sacrifice of Jesus (NT) that blame and punishment can be transferred; through Jesus we see that this requires oneness with Jesus (to let Jesus live inside us), and we see that only one of the 2 in the process of oneness is needed to suffer, the other can go free - sinless and blameless (the reason Jesus had to suffer and die). ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/22 "2011-03-14T15:32:15Z")
Here’s a Google search of the World English Bible (which seems to be a pretty good translation, from doing cross comparisons): [http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebible.org%2Fweb%2F+satan&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebible.org%2Fweb%2F+satan&btnG=Google+Search) He seems to be fairly decisively a fallen angel, which makes the closest real connection to the Jewish character of Samael. The visual of a horrendous snake comes from the description of Yaldabaoth, a snake with the head of a lion. But Samael is non-cannonical. He is one of a series of myths, like the story of Adam’s first wife being Lilith, which grew up possibly as explanations for nagging questions in the Bible which either weren’t very well explained or where the explanation had been forgotten. Samael is not actually in the Bible anywhere. The Old Testament archangels were almost certainly a reference to the older pantheon of El, Shamash, Resheph, Astarte, etc. Ancient poetry about El was taken and adapted for the Bible when it was written, with Yahweh taking the place of El in the poems. The lesser, subservient gods, were thenceforth rewritten as “angels”. I believe that the word generally translated as “angels” in the OT is elohim. Elohim, as best I can tell, is simply the plural of “god”. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/23 "2011-03-14T15:44:57Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Then were does the popular myth spring from with regards to Satan and/or various demons having “many names”, or the ever-popular “we are legion”. > > Legba, Scratch, Asmodeus, Satan, The Devil, Lucifer, Beelzebub, etc? You’re looking at the evolution of memes. Sometimes memes merge and sometimes they split. Many things merged into the idea of Satan. When someone pointed out all of the places he appears in the OT and in the Talmud, and each time he had a different name, it would have been “obvious” to the viewer that Satan was a tricky fellow, always taking on different guises and names. But of course the reality is that the histories of those names were simply forgotten, and weren’t the same character at all. Beelzebub is, as said, 100% a reference to the Phoenician variant of Baal. I don’t think you’ll find a source which says anything else. Lucifer was a reference to a couple of king who claimed himself to be a living god, and then reused as a descriptor for a second king who did the same at a later date. Legba is a modern day introduction, it seems: [Papa Legba - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legba) Old Scratch is a 19th century name for Satan, that isn’t in the Bible: [Old Scratch - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Scratch) Asmodeus is another ancient Jewish fairy tale that is extra-Biblical. The word for Devil seems to come from the Greek, “slanderer”. Satan is called a slanderer various times in the NT. This makes sense since he was the competition for the early Christians. You want to make sure that the people who are telling everyone that Jesus taught the lessons of a god named Satan were actually lying. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/24 "2011-03-14T15:57:45Z")
As I’m sure many of you are already aware, I’m a Freemason. A little bit of a history lesson is in order. Who here has heard about Leo Taxil? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/25 "2011-03-14T16:26:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I know on this subject you bring up Job a lot. Job is the one who figures out, through trials, that it is not God punishing him but Satan masquerading as God, while everyone tells Job that God is being hard on you. Job knows the truth and sticks with it. I thought you believed in the Bible as written. From Job: > [@](#): > > 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. > [@](#): > > One possible explanation to the trials of Job is God and Satan were competing for who would be Job’s father (spiritual father), perhaps Job was a child of the devil (possible, as pharisees were ID’s as children of the devil by Jesus) that God wanted to rescue and adopt. This would cause the contest, Satan thinking that Job would blame (curse) God and continue to be his (spiritual) father. In the story it certainly seems that Satan is among the sons of God, in other word, an angel. You can make up anything to try to explain away this story, but that doesn’t make your fantasy valid. > [@](#): > > The serpent in A&E as I pointed out has been ID’s 2x in Revelation as Satan, but that’s not the end of it. There is a process of ‘oneness’ that happens, 2 beings becoming one. This is the process of God living inside man, God and man are one. This is also the process of the serpent (a animal) and Satan living as one in the same body (also the process of demonic possession mentioned many times in the NT, sometimes with many being s inside the one flesh). We can see a example of this this in the new testament where Jesus turns to Peter and says ‘get behind me Satan’. At that moment Peter and Satan were sharing the same body - they were one with each other. > > So that serpent was one with the devil, it appears so Satan could have a physical body so as to talk with Eve, but also, very important, so the serpent (the animal) can take the blame, making Satan blameless and therefor not under the judgment of God. In scriptures we see this in the scapegoat (OT), and the sacrifice of Jesus (NT) that blame and punishment can be transferred; through Jesus we see that this requires oneness with Jesus (to let Jesus live inside us), and we see that only one of the 2 in the process of oneness is needed to suffer, the other can go free - sinless and blameless (the reason Jesus had to suffer and die). I Satan occupied the serpent, how come God cursed the serpent and all of his descendants? The actual snake could hardly be blamed, could he? I’m happy to say that I went through many years of Hebrew School and went to lots of services and never did my teachers or my rabbi feel the need to threaten me with a minor Biblical character. And I’ve never felt the need to claim that anyone else made me buy this dress. (\*) (\*) Obscure Flip Wilson reference ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/26 "2011-03-14T16:45:02Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I thought you believed in the Bible as written. Yes including the important ‘scriptures can not be broken’ quote from Jesus > [@](#): > > In the story it certainly seems that Satan is among the sons of God, in other word, an angel. Actually I would put Satan as a Arch angel. It is clear that ‘sons of God’ have children on earth from Gen 6. > [@](#): > > I Satan occupied the serpent, how come God cursed the serpent and all of his descendants? The actual snake could hardly be blamed, could he? In scriptures clearly and certainly yes the serpent would bear the blame. As to why, because the serpent allowed this union with Satan, the oneness with evil. That will be reversed in time and forgiven. The reason for this is the salvation of Satan, one of God’s children. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/27 "2011-03-14T20:33:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes including the important ‘scriptures can not be broken’ quote from Jesus > > Actually I would put Satan as a Arch angel. It is clear that ‘sons of God’ have children on earth from Gen 6. Yes, but these sons of God seem to be good, and sitting at God’s feet. It is not clear that they are the same as did evil in Genesis. After all, all their descendants were killed in the Flood. > [@](#): > > In scriptures clearly and certainly yes the serpent would bear the blame. As to why, because the serpent allowed this union with Satan, the oneness with evil. That will be reversed in time and forgiven. > > The reason for this is the salvation of Satan, one of God’s children. Do you think serpents reason? Are the responsible for their sins? Satan occupied the body of this serpent who, being a creature, could do nothing to stop it. That is why the serpent could speak, not very common nowadays. Anyhow, the Bible clearly says that the serpent was punished for tricking Eve, not for giving up its body. You also did not respond to the passage showing clearly that God gave permission for Satan to torment Job by hurting his family. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/28 "2011-03-14T20:51:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes including the important ‘scriptures can not be broken’ quote from Jesus > > Actually I would put Satan as a Arch angel. It is clear that ‘sons of God’ have children on earth from Gen 6. > In scriptures clearly and certainly yes the serpent would bear the blame. As to why, because the serpent allowed this union with Satan, the oneness with evil. That will be reversed in time and forgiven. > > The reason for this is the salvation of Satan, one of God’s children. For the purposes of this thread, I’d rather we dealt with “Satan” as he is described in the Bible, not the one of your suppositions. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/29 "2011-03-14T20:57:00Z")
Good luck with that. kanicbird is as kanicbirdist first and foremost. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/30 "2011-03-14T21:10:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Yes, but these sons of God seem to be good, and sitting at God’s feet. It is not clear that they are the same as did evil in Genesis. After all, all their descendants were killed in the Flood. Nowhere did the scriptures state that the Sons of God nor their children the Nephilum were bad or evil, and the scriptures state clearly that God caused the flood because of the wickedness of mankind (not nephilum kind) - in Gen 6. > [@](#): > > Do you think serpents reason? Are the responsible for their sins? Satan occupied the body of this serpent who, being a creature, could do nothing to stop it. That is why the serpent could speak, not very common nowadays. Anyhow, the Bible clearly says that the serpent was punished for tricking Eve, not for giving up its body. Yes the serpent reasons, though as a small child, but still reasons. Animals talk in scriptures, but most of that is hidden from us, IMHO due to the fallen (to sin) condition of our world. The serpent apparently did what is called sometimes called spiritual adultery, allowing any entity which is not part of the Holy Spirit, from occupying, or joining with, your soul. This is the basis of all sin, any operations and actions outside the will of God. The specific charge is the result of the spiritual adultery. > [@](#): > > You also did not respond to the passage showing clearly that God gave permission for Satan to torment Job by hurting his family. Not really sure why you bring this up. Job was ‘handed over to Satan’, this was also done in the new testament 2x I believe both done through the apostle Paul. This handing over to Satan is for the salvation of the soul of the person, and is very unpleasant, but when it is over God restores everything, including all of Job’s family (in Job 42) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/31 "2011-03-14T21:15:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > For the purposes of this thread, I’d rather we dealt with “Satan” as he is described in the Bible, not the one of your suppositions. No, you just want to take your little snippets of scripture and ignore the rest, it doesn’t work like that. Let me elaborate a bit more, scripture paints a picture of the true reality we live in, it is multi dimensional and every book is the same story of the same person told from a different perspective that person is Jesus Christ and His redemption of humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/32 "2011-03-14T21:22:00Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes the serpent reasons, though as a small child, but still reasons. Animals talk in scriptures, but most of that is hidden from us, IMHO due to the fallen (to sin) condition of our world. > > The serpent apparently did what is called sometimes called spiritual adultery, allowing any entity which is not part of the Holy Spirit, from occupying, or joining with, your soul. This is the basis of all sin, any operations and actions outside the will of God. The specific charge is the result of the spiritual adultery. Once again, we are talking about “Satan” as he is described in the Bible, and by this I mean the Bible that is available to the public, _not the one that exists only in your rather vivid imagination._ if you want to talk about about passages that are not written down where the rest of us can see them, please take it to another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/33 "2011-03-14T21:23:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, you just want to take your little snippets of scripture and ignore the rest, it doesn’t work like that. > > Let me elaborate a bit more, scripture paints a picture of the true reality we live in, it is multi dimensional and every book is the same story of the same person told from a different perspective that person is Jesus Christ and His redemption of humanity. Elaborate elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/34 "2011-03-14T21:33:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > More passages that, in my opinion, should be eliminated: > > 1. 2 Kings 1:2-4. This references _Baalzebub_. King Ahaziah of Samaria was injured and sought advice from Baal, a god of the Phoenicians. The Israelites added the suffix “zebul”(dung) to his name, which was later corrupted to “zebub”. Baalzebul means “Lord of the High” or “Lord of Heaven”. Zebul got corrupted to zebub, so “Lord of Heaven” turns into “Lord of Flies”. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/35 "2011-03-14T21:44:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is the nature of Satan _as he is described in the Bible_? in my opinion we can disregard the reference to the creature that tempted Eve in Genesis because it was merely a crafty animal: Not so fast - the writer of Revelation said that the serpent that tempted Eve _was_ Satan. _Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him._ At least, most Christians think that this is referring to the Garden of Eden serpent, and I have to agree with them that this was the intent. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/36 "2011-03-14T22:16:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Nowhere did the scriptures state that the Sons of God nor their children the Nephilum were bad or evil, and the scriptures state clearly that God caused the flood because of the wickedness of mankind (not nephilum kind) - in Gen 6. > > Yes the serpent reasons, though as a small child, but still reasons. Animals talk in scriptures, but most of that is hidden from us, IMHO due to the fallen (to sin) condition of our world. > > The serpent apparently did what is called sometimes called spiritual adultery, allowing any entity which is not part of the Holy Spirit, from occupying, or joining with, your soul. This is the basis of all sin, any operations and actions outside the will of God. The specific charge is the result of the spiritual adultery. > Not really sure why you bring this up. Job was ‘handed over to Satan’, this was also done in the new testament 2x I believe both done through the apostle Paul. This handing over to Satan is for the salvation of the soul of the person, and is very unpleasant, but when it is over God restores everything, including all of Job’s family (in Job 42) Not the original family, though. They stayed dead. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/37 "2011-03-14T22:23:43Z")
Some have said that Satan is whomever places themselves equal or above God. Why God gave us free will and then punished us for using it is beyond me… ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/38 "2011-03-14T22:25:18Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Baalzebul means “Lord of the High” or “Lord of Heaven”. Zebul got corrupted to zebub, so “Lord of Heaven” turns into “Lord of Flies”. That reminds me of Lord of the Flies. Excellent piece of classic literature, no library should be with out a copy. I’m a connoisseur of literature, if you haven’t already noticed. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/39 "2011-03-14T22:27:34Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > Some have said that Satan is whomever places themselves equal or above God. Why God gave us free will and then punished us for using it is beyond me… Well, God said that HE is God. > [@](#): > > Thou shalt have no other gods before Me ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551/40 "2011-03-14T22:35:57Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Then were does the popular myth spring from with regards to Satan and/or various demons having “many names”, or the ever-popular “we are legion”. > > \ I believe that [this story](http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/jcm33.html) of Jesus casting out demons into swine is the source of the quote _“My name is Legion, for we are many.”_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-satan/574551.md?page=3)