# Who is the Freecell Champion ? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 6, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520 "2009-03-06T14:05:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/1 "2009-03-06T14:05:29Z")
Are you better than me ? Statistics: 85% Win Streak…56 Lost Streak…5 Won…3226 Lost…563 ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/2 "2009-03-06T14:29:20Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Are you better than me ? > > Statistics: > > 85% > > Win Streak…56 > Lost Streak…5 > > Won…3226 > Lost…563 Nope. Win streak at 40 and loss at 6. Only 73% winning, but I very often just close a game when I idly open it and realize I should be doing something else. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/3 "2009-03-06T15:00:07Z")
Do you mean Freecell Solitaire? I’ve been doing them for years and only had 2 or 3 I couldn’t solve. I restart alot though. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/4 "2009-03-06T15:11:42Z")
Well, there are 2 or 3 which nobody can solve. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/5 "2009-03-06T15:42:27Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Well, there are 2 or 3 which nobody can solve. Oh, there’s alot more than 2 or 3 that can’t be solved, I just haven’t come across them yet. My unofficial record would be something like 5000 wins to 3 losses or 99.994% over 5 years. I never really kept track of the stats. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/6 "2009-03-06T15:48:13Z")
One thing I’ve noticed on Vista is that it will let you undo all the way back to the beginning. I don’t think the XP version would let you do that. So my percentage is much better on my newer laptop (99%) than it is on my old desktop (probably somewhere around 75%) because I can essentially restart if I get stuck without getting dinged for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/7 "2009-03-06T17:50:34Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > One thing I’ve noticed on Vista is that it will let you undo all the way back to the beginning. I don’t think the XP version would let you do that. So my percentage is much better on my newer laptop (99%) than it is on my old desktop (probably somewhere around 75%) because I can essentially restart if I get stuck without getting dinged for it. Yep, same here! ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/8 "2009-03-06T18:56:55Z")
I don’t play as often anymore. On my current computer, I have 89 wins, 0 losses. ---
**Author:** ![Tamex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Tamex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamex)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/9 "2009-03-08T21:06:39Z")
Anyone play Double Freecell? I just got a Nintendo DS game called Solitaire Overload which has that game (Freecell with two decks) and I’ve been playing it while recovering from my wisdom tooth extraction. It is so hard! Granted, I’ve been a little loopy from my pain meds, but I’ve played over 100 times and haven’t won yet. According to the program, the chance of winning is 4% (30% for regular Freecell). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/10 "2009-03-08T21:28:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, there’s alot more than 2 or 3 that can’t be solved, I just haven’t come across them yet. Of the standard 64k games in the Windows distribution (which is what almost everyone plays), there is exactly one unbeatable deal, and I think that mathematically, that’s actually more than you’d expect in that many deals. So for a sufficiently good player, the chance of winning is well over 99.99%. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2009, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/11 "2009-03-09T00:35:56Z")
Streak 57, 87% wins, can only undo last move. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/12 "2009-03-10T05:46:29Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Well, there are 2 or 3 which nobody can solve. Oh you mean game " -1 " and game " -2 " . To everyone else here who is about to go out and attempt those games: you’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/13 "2009-03-10T10:55:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Of the standard 64k games in the Windows distribution (which is what almost everyone plays), there is exactly one unbeatable deal, and I think that mathematically, that’s actually more than you’d expect in that many deals. So for a sufficiently good player, the chance of winning is well over 99.99%. Only one? That’s interesting…where did you get this info? Cite? Although, logically, it doesn’t make sense since any unsolvable deal would at least be multiplied by four, substituting the configuration with the different suits. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/14 "2009-03-10T11:50:00Z")
Apparently there are 8 unsolvable deals… > [@](#): > > Out of the current Microsoft Windows games, there are believed to be eight that are unsolvable: the games numbered 11,982, 146,692, 186,216, 455,889, 495,505, 512,118, 517,776 and 781,948. This conclusion was arrived at by the consensus of several FreeCell “solvers”, including Danny A. Jones and Gary D. Campbell. Several other solvers have also failed to produce solutions to these games. - Wikipedia and FreecellFAQ ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/15 "2009-03-10T19:57:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Although, logically, it doesn’t make sense since any unsolvable deal would at least be multiplied by four, substituting the configuration with the different suits. Multiplied by 24, actually, since there are 24 possible permutations of four suits. There are many more than one or four or 24 unsolvable deals possible in principle, but most of them don’t come up in the limited set supported by the computer game. It used to be that the game only supported 65,535 different deals, but apparently (judging from that cite) they’ve expanded that now. It looks like they probably have 1048575 different deals now, but that’s still far, far short of the 52! (approximately 8\*10[sup]67[/sup]) different valid deals that exist. ---
**Author:** ![Omphaloskeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bcef8e/32.png) [@Omphaloskeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omphaloskeptic)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/16 "2009-03-10T20:30:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Multiplied by 24, actually, since there are 24 possible permutations of four suits. Not necessarily; swapping a red and a black suit may make an unsolvable game solvable. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/17 "2009-03-10T22:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Not necessarily; swapping a red and a black suit may make an unsolvable game solvable. Ah, right, it almost certainly would. But you could still swap both of the black suits with both of the red suits without change to the gameplay, so it’d be a factor of 8. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/18 "2009-03-10T22:53:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Multiplied by 24, actually, since there are 24 possible permutations of four suits. There are many more than one or four or 24 unsolvable deals possible in principle, but most of them don’t come up in the limited set supported by the computer game. It used to be that the game only supported 65,535 different deals, but apparently (judging from that cite) they’ve expanded that now. It looks like they probably have 1048575 different deals now, but that’s still far, far short of the 52! (approximately 8\*10[sup]67[/sup]) different valid deals that exist. It’s been a long time since I studied calculus and I understand the massive number of permutations but I completely overlooked the fact that there is a limited set of deals available.. Now it makes sense, they obviously can’t have a game number with 68 digits. Thanks. Now, if they did away with numbering of games could they write an algorithm that could generate all the different valid deals? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/19 "2009-03-11T00:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, if they did away with numbering of games could they write an algorithm that could generate all the different valid deals? Eventually? Sure. But the most straightforward way of doing it would give you very similar deals one after another, which would probably get monotonous, and there’s no real benefit to it. No real human being is ever going to actually go through a million games, nor recognize that a game is identical to one played already. Plus there’s a benefit to having game numbers: You can ask a friend “Hey, can you beat game number 734295”, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520/20 "2009-03-11T13:42:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Eventually? Sure. But the most straightforward way of doing it would give you very similar deals one after another, which would probably get monotonous, and there’s no real benefit to it. No real human being is ever going to actually go through a million games, nor recognize that a game is identical to one played already. Plus there’s a benefit to having game numbers: You can ask a friend “Hey, can you beat game number 734295”, or whatever. ``` You miss my point, I understand why there's numbered games, I was more interested in whether there is an algorithm that would truly randomly generate every permutation by shuffling the deck and dealing the cards as one would play with a real deck. I remember trying to develop one in Digital Logic 101 at university and it proved a difficult task. ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-freecell-champion/488520.md?page=2)