# Who is the Greatest Briton? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 21, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210 "2002-10-21T11:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eidolon909](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce7236/32.png) [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/41 "2002-10-22T13:00:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*Nelson (celebrity military leader more than influential military leader - his real accomplishments are overshadowed by his fame). \*\* Under what pretense do you make such a statement? Nelson certainly had what you would call “celebrity” almost to a mythical degree, but to say it was in anyway undeserving or overshadowed his true accomplishment is a gross injustice to one of England’s greatest heroes. Do I really need to elaborate? Ok, I shall… 1. Aboukir Bay/The Battle of the Nile (July 29-30 1798) – The Destruction of the French Fleet saw Napoleon stranded in Egypt, his aim of capturing India forever denied. Without proper supplies or reinforcements the expedition is a failure and Napoleon abandons his own troops to flee in secret back to France. 2. The Battle of Copanhagen (April 2, 1801) – Nelson disobeys Admiral Parker in the famous “holding his telescope to his missing eye” to ensure the surrender and complete capitulation of the Danes. The Danish surrender shatters the League of Armed Neutrality and leads to the Peace of Amiens in the next year. 3. The Battle of Trafalgar (October 21, 1805) – The outnumbered and outgunned British fleet (27 sail of the line) sink, destroy or burn 18 of the enemies 33 sail of the line completely crushing the Franco-Spanish fleet. The victory denies Napoleon the sea for the duration of the war and Britannia Rules the Waves uncontested. And people think Churchill made good sound bytes? Nelson by signal to the combined fleet at Trafalgar: “England expects that every man will do his duty.” Nelson, his last words as he is struck down by a sniper’s bullet in the spine and having been told his fleet is victorious at Trafalgar: “Now I am satisfied. Thank God, I have done my duty.” Most of those people don’t even deserve to be on the same list as Nelson. Ugh. Come cheer up my lads, its to glory we steer… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/42 "2002-10-22T13:01:54Z")
I thought Geoffrey Ashe had more or less persuaded people that King Arthur was at least more or less based on a real person, more or less? ([Semi-obligatory link to Ashe article](http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur1.html)). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I’d just like to say that I’m glad two of my ancestors made the top 100. > \*\* Let me guess… you’re the secret love child of Elton John and Robbie Williams? ---
**Author:** ![ralphthemuppet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@ralphthemuppet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralphthemuppet)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/43 "2002-10-22T13:08:39Z")
Given the nature of this discussion [Professor Tim Berners-Lee](http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/bernerslee.html) should be up there somewhere… ---
**Author:** ![ralphthemuppet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@ralphthemuppet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralphthemuppet)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/44 "2002-10-22T13:11:34Z")
Um…I meant the OP not **jjimm** (no offence) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/45 "2002-10-22T13:23:24Z")
**Eidolon909** , I’m not trying to decry Nelson’s military victories or his personal courage. But we do have many notable military heroes in our history, and I, personally, think something more than military prowess is needed to win the title of _greatest_ Briton. As **garius** pointed out, it’s odd to include Nelson but not Wellington, who genuinely directed the war against Napoleon, implemented substantial reforms in the British Army, went on to become Prime Minister, helped Robert Peel establish the police force, forced George IV to accept Catholic Emancipation… substantial accomplishments, no? But Wellington didn’t die dramatically and get a thumping great column in the middle of London, so he’s not on the list. Of course, I’m voting for Newton based solely on his contributions to science… but those are so substantial, and in areas so fundamental, that (to my mind) they stand out above the accomplishments of just about everyone on that list. (And, correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Peace of Amiens turn out to be nothing more than a handy opportunity for France to rearm?) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/46 "2002-10-22T13:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > \*\*Let me guess… you’re the secret love child of Elton John and Robbie Williams? \*\* Have you seen pictures of me or something? **ralph** , I can’t work out why I should be offended, so no offence taken. Though if you want to point out why I should be offended, I can then nearly get offended, then not get offended after all. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/47 "2002-10-22T13:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > I thought Geoffrey Ashe had more or less persuaded people that King Arthur was at least more or less based on a real person, more or less? ([Semi-obligatory link to Ashe article](http://www.britannia.com/history/arthur1.html)). Ashe’s article is very interesting but is a bit like saying “Willy Wonka is a real person because there really are chocolate factories”. Maybe the people who voted for Arthur were scholars of Celtic/Anglo-Saxon history, or maybe they thought they were voting for Graham Chapman? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/48 "2002-10-22T13:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > …But Wellington didn’t die dramatically and get a thumping great column in the middle of London, so he’s not on the list. Wellington [got one in Liverpool](http://www.liverpoolarchitecture.com/tours/buildings/4.shtml), which is far more important IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Eidolon909](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce7236/32.png) [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/49 "2002-10-22T13:46:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > As **garius** pointed out, it’s odd to include Nelson but not Wellington, … But Wellington didn’t die dramatically and get a thumping great column in the middle of London, so he’s not on the list. Well Wellington should be, but then considering that Robbie Williams and David Beckham are in the top 100 you cease to wonder as to why. And I agree with you that Newton is incredibly deserving and his contributions to science are immense. In fact, I believe he made A&E Biography’s 10 Top Most Influential people of all time. > [@](#): > > (And, correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Peace of Amiens turn out to be nothing more than a handy opportunity for France to rearm?) Yes well, we Brit’s have never been terribly good with diplomacy. It was seen as a victory at the time, or rather an “acceptable draw” as I suppose some people truly took Boney for his word… flash forward a hundred and thirty years or so… Chamberlain addressing the public (a paraphrase) “I believe this Hitler chap to be jolly well good and earnest and committed to peace.” ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/50 "2002-10-22T13:47:31Z")
He’s also got quite a large [erection](http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/phoenix_park/wellington_lge.html) in Dublin. ---
**Author:** ![ralphthemuppet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@ralphthemuppet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralphthemuppet)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/51 "2002-10-22T13:49:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\* I can’t work out why I should be offended, so no offence taken. Though if you want to point out why I should be offended, I can then nearly get offended, then not get offended after all. \*\* Er…? Half past four, 3rd left after the Lebanese restaurant? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Eidolon909](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce7236/32.png) [@Eidolon909](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eidolon909)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/52 "2002-10-22T13:50:06Z")
Addendum: Wellington has a rather fetching statue in Whitehall and his tomb is proudly displayed in the crypt at St. James near to Nelson’s. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/53 "2002-10-22T14:45:07Z")
Well, I’m not trying to suggest that Wellington _wasn’t_ honoured, both during and after his lifetime… What I would suggest, though, is that Nelson is better known for his grand dramatic moments than for his real achievements; there’s a “superstar” image about Nelson that Wellington lacks. I’d even go so far as to suggest that this was deliberate - Nelson had to overcome a number of disadvantages in life, and publicity _was_ one of the tools he used to do that. He was _not_ shy about putting himself forward, or making sure that he was seen in the most favourable light. Hence my claim that “Nelson the national myth” overshadows “Nelson the man”. (Though, of course, for a _really_ glaring disparity between public image and actual accomplishment, we have to turn once again to Her Ex-Royal Sickliness, the Patron Saint of Photo Opportunities. If _she_ wins, I am seriously going to look into becoming a naturalized citizen of Azerbaijan…) ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/54 "2002-10-22T15:28:35Z")
On military heroes - Marlborough wasn’t in the top 100. Like Wellington he ran the war but unlike Wellington, he also ran England’s foreign policy and had to deal with Dutch, Austrian and miscellaneous German allies. But since he is less famous, he didn’t make it. My choice is split between Darwin and Churchill (who was a descendant of Marlborough). Darwin changed the way the world looks at life and at God. His influence is still felt today and he got so much right at the first attempt. Churchill was the leader who inspired the British Empire (Britain was not alone - thank you Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa) to fight on after France fell and the appeasers were whispering that Hitler could be dealt with. Newton is a close third, tying with Shakespeare. The rest of the top ten are a long way behind those four. Some (Di, Lennon) are not fit to be in the same competition, let alone among the top ten. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/55 "2002-10-22T15:31:17Z")
Arguably Wellington was seen during his lifetime as a more charismatic man even than Nelson. He certainly wasn’t backward in coming forward either (home address “No.1, London”). Nelson had to overcome public scandal at the time over his unorthodox private life, but that doesn’t count against him any more - so long as you ignore the misunderstanding over his last words. I think we can discount Rik’s claim in _The Young Ones_ that Wellington invented the Chelsea boot. Newton probably should win; Churchill probably will. Diana won’t win. Say it together after me. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/56 "2002-10-22T15:43:14Z")
I know a few Irish people who are voting Diana just to show you up 😛 ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/57 "2002-10-22T15:44:17Z")
Not me BTW ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/58 "2002-10-22T16:11:46Z")
Bloody cheek! There’s been enough controversy about the spurious inclusion of post-independence Irish Republic candidates, but when I went to vote, it doesn’t categorise submissions from the Irish Republic. “Outside the UK” is the closest you can get. I voted for Winnie, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Go\_alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_alien)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/59 "2002-10-23T08:17:41Z")
Watched the Brunel show last night, which was rather good. After the show, he shot up to second in the polls. I fear that Di will top the poll after her show. And if the Beeb put her show on towards the end of the run, I think she’ll win it. And the world’s opinion of the intellectual ability of the British public will reach a low point from which it may never recover. ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210/60 "2002-10-23T09:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*He’s also got quite a large [erection](http://www.irish-architecture.com/buildings_ireland/dublin/northcity/phoenix_park/wellington_lge.html) in Dublin. \*\* Nelson had his own [erection](http://www.irelandposters.com/19th_century_photos.html) in Dublin (third pic from the top) to rival Wellington’s but he got a sudden bout of [impotence](http://www.fantasyjackpalance.com/fjp/photos/kf/history/0code/nelsons-pillar.html) in 1966. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-briton/133210.md?page=4)