# Who is the greatest closer of all time? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510 "2012-03-12T01:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/1 "2012-03-12T01:36:10Z")
A simple one vote poll and feel free to explain your vote or argue over someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/2 "2012-03-12T01:52:50Z")
Well, I would pick Hoyt Wilhelm, but since he’s not listed, it’s hard to beat Rivera, both for number of saves and the ability to come through under pressure. And I’m a Mets fan (Franco was a favorite, but only about fourth on my all-time list). ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/3 "2012-03-12T01:54:50Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Well, I would pick Hoyt Wilhelm, but since he’s not listed, it’s hard to beat Rivera, both for number of saves and the ability to come through under pressure. And I’m a Mets fan (Franco was a favorite, but only about fourth on my all-time list). Oddly that was the name on the edge. I decided to pull in a few younger guys instead of Hoyt. I’m adding polls for more positions shortly using **RickJay** ’s 2008 HOF threads. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/4 "2012-03-12T01:58:16Z")
As a Yankee hater since childhood, it pains me to say this, but…Rivera. Too good for too long, especially in the postseason. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/5 "2012-03-12T02:07:59Z")
Billy Wagner should be on the list, but I of course chose Rivera. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/6 "2012-03-12T02:10:38Z")
Sawx fan here, former Mets fan, who voted for Rivera unthinkingly. Any other vote and you’re DQed. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/7 "2012-03-12T02:16:17Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Billy Wagner should be on the list, but I of course chose Rivera. I’ll admit that I thought strongly about Wagner as he may well be in the top 10 all time but as I only wanted #1 and he played at the same time as Rivera and Hoffman I decided there was no real sense in including him on the list. The closer list was really just my call with some aid from Baseball Reference. For the position players I am using **RickJay** ’s great threads of the past. The 8 " **SDMB Baseball Hall of Fame Vote …"** ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/8 "2012-03-12T02:21:55Z")
Okay, Papelbon is about the same age as Pujols, but the former gets on a ballot and the latter does not. Ooohkay. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/9 "2012-03-12T02:42:38Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Okay, Papelbon is about the same age as Pujols, but the former gets on a ballot and the latter does not. Ooohkay. Sorry, I did not choose the ballots for the positional players. The SDMB did a few years ago. I only chose the Starters & Closers. Honestly Closer is not a position I expect any real competition in anyway but Starters is tough. I’ll probably disagree with my own vote by tomorrow. You’re right though, if I put any real thought into I would have included Pujols as #11 on the first basemen poll but honestly, he is not as of today #1 anyway is he? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/10 "2012-03-12T03:17:14Z")
Easiest of the polls and I’d love to hear the argument for Hoffman over Rivera, unless it’s just fan loyalty… ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/11 "2012-03-12T03:26:33Z")
Rivera, obviously. I gave Eckersly #2, and then the rest are just “also ran” in my books. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/12 "2012-03-12T04:30:08Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Well, I would pick Hoyt Wilhelm, but since he’s not listed, it’s hard to beat Rivera, both for number of saves and the ability to come through under pressure. And I’m a Mets fan (Franco was a favorite, but only about fourth on my all-time list). Hoyt Wilhelm wasn’t exactly a “closer.” Using the modern definition the correct answer is Mariano Rivera. I mean, how can there be any question? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/13 "2012-03-12T12:55:28Z")
I would love to hear more on the Hoffman vote, but he is on the list as he was the only contemporary to Mo that anyone ever really considered #1. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/14 "2012-03-12T12:58:10Z")
This is the only position in which there is a clear winner. Mo is well above anyone. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/15 "2012-03-12T13:53:08Z")
Nathan and Valverde in the poll, but no Sutter or Quisenberry? Not that it would have mattered, my vote goes to Mo regardless. But some of the poll option selections seem strange. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/16 "2012-03-12T13:55:27Z")
What I find interesting is that as much as Rivera is the “hammer of god” Hoffman’s save stats are practically identical. Rivera - 675 Save Opps - 603 Saves Hoffman - 677 Save Opps - 601 Saves Yet, in some of the more esoteric stats like Win Probability, Rivera is WAY ahead. I wonder if, for players with limited roles like a closer, do those types of stats overapply certain factors, when the goal is to get the Save, and Win the game, which Hoffman seems to do just about as frequently as Rivera. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/17 "2012-03-12T13:57:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I’ll admit that I thought strongly about Wagner as he may well be in the top 10 all time but as I only wanted #1 and he played at the same time as Rivera and Hoffman I decided there was no real sense in including him on the list. Wagner is definitely top-10 and has an argument for #2 – that argument being that he was inning-for-inning the most effective pitcher in history not named Mariano Rivera - an ERA+ of 187, which is miles ahead of everyone else on this list except for Papelbon (who is close to 200; Rivera is 206), and Papelbon has only half as many innings as Wagner. Wagner’s downside is that he didn’t have many innings even for a closer, only 900 for his career, which keeps him from showing up on that career ERA+ chart that Rivera leads by about 50 points. But even so, his total runs saved is about even with most of the other top closers and behind Rivera and Gossage, who pitched a ton more innings than most of the others on that list. Also, all of those strikeouts. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/18 "2012-03-12T15:17:19Z")
Rivera is just stone cold scary (for the other team). ---
**Author:** ![Yaxche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8dc957/32.png) [@Yaxche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yaxche)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/19 "2012-03-12T15:21:18Z")
I love Rollie and Eckersley and hate the Yankees, but yeah, it’s Rivera. I think even accounting for save inflation, he comes out on top. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510/20 "2012-03-12T15:47:46Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What I find interesting is that as much as Rivera is the “hammer of god” Hoffman’s save stats are practically identical. > > Rivera - 675 Save Opps - 603 Saves > Hoffman - 677 Save Opps - 601 Saves > > Yet, in some of the more esoteric stats like Win Probability, Rivera is WAY ahead. > > I wonder if, for players with limited roles like a closer, do those types of stats overapply certain factors, when the goal is to get the Save, and Win the game, which Hoffman seems to do just about as frequently as Rivera. The biggest difference is in 2 key areas I think. Mo had far more 4+ outs saves then Hoffman and as great as Mo is, his post season numbers are insanely better at all ages. Also I think we all accept the save stat sucks and some of those early closers that had a different usage and considered 2-3 inning saves normal are probably the equal or better than Hoffman & Wagner. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-greatest-closer-of-all-time/615510.md?page=2)