# Who is the leaker in the NSA and CIA prison stories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/1 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")
(I know that these topics are the subjects of other threads, but I haven’t seen this question specifically addressed. And even though it’s a poll of sorts, I was sure it would end up in GD anyway.) Two separate Justice Department investigations are now underway to determine who leaked classified information regarding the aforementioned stories. I’m curious who fellow dopers think the source or sources for the leak are. My first guess would be could be someone on the staff of Democratic members on either the House or Senate Intelligence Committees. It could also be a longtime staffer somewhere in the intelligence community rather than someone who is appointed to a political job. And was their purpose simply to undermine GWB politically? What other purpose could have been served by the leak? Was the damage done by the leak worth revealing the information to the press? Lastly, I’m sure those who called for an exhaustive investigation of the Plame leak to be just as zealous to find the source of these two. Intellectual consistency and all that. Right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/2 "2006-01-01T22:24:23Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > (I know that these topics are the subjects of other threads, but I haven’t seen this question specifically addressed. And even though it’s a poll of sorts, I was sure it would end up in GD anyway.) > > Two separate Justice Department investigations are now underway to determine who leaked classified information regarding the aforementioned stories. I’m curious who fellow dopers think the source or sources for the leak are. My first guess would be could be someone on the staff of Democratic members on either the House or Senate Intelligence Committees. It could also be a longtime staffer somewhere in the intelligence community rather than someone who is appointed to a political job. > > And was their purpose simply to undermine GWB politically? What other purpose could have been served by the leak? Was the damage done by the leak worth revealing the information to the press? > > Lastly, I’m sure those who called for an exhaustive investigation of the Plame leak to be just as zealous to find the source of these two. Intellectual consistency and all that. Right? Are you ignoring on purpose that the reports on the CIA jails pointed to possible Republican sources? So yes, regardless of the political leanings from the sources, I do want and investigation to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/3 "2006-01-01T22:29:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Are you ignoring on purpose that the reports on the CIA jails pointed to possible Republican sources? > > So yes, regardless of the political leanings from the sources, I do want and investigation to follow. I am assuming the leaks were done within the Democrats orbit for the purpose of undermining the President. I hadn’t heard that the CIA leak pointed to Republican sources. I would wonder what their goal was if that was the case, but it really doesn’t matter to me. I hope whoever is discovered to have leaked the information goes to prison. That goes for “Scooter” and whoever else comes up in the Plame case as well. Breaking the law is breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/4 "2006-01-01T22:34:55Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I am assuming the leaks were done within the Democrats orbit for the purpose of undermining the President. Why? The CIA leak most likely came from someone in the CIA, not some politician. Same with the NSA leak-- very few politicians new about it, so the likely source is someone in the NSA. If someone wanted to undermine Bush politically, they picked a strange to do it. Why not wait until we are closer to the midterm elections? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/5 "2006-01-01T22:39:15Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I am assuming the leaks were done within the Democrats orbit for the purpose of undermining the President. Why couldn’t the leak have come from people concerned about the legality/constitutionality of the actions? It’s not all about Bush, you know. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/6 "2006-01-01T22:45:24Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I am assuming the leaks were done within the Democrats orbit for the purpose of undermining the President. I hadn’t heard that the CIA leak pointed to Republican sources. I would wonder what their goal was if that was the case, but it really doesn’t matter to me. > > I hope whoever is discovered to have leaked the information goes to prison. That goes for “Scooter” and whoever else comes up in the Plame case as well. Breaking the law is breaking the law. It was not the CIA that pointed the finger, but Trent Lott himself: [http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/08/ldt.01.html](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0511/08/ldt.01.html) > [@](#): > > Officials up here were basically saying throughout the day that they believe former and current CIA officials were to blame for leaking this classified information to the “Washington Post” about the secret prisons where allegedly terror suspects were held. > > But then late this afternoon, Republican Senator Trent Lott basically stunned reporters saying that, in fact, he thinks that at least one Republican senator may have been involved in this, as well. Basically, Senator Lott told reporters that at last Tuesday, a private lunch between Republican senators and Vice President Cheney, this information about secret prisoners and prisons were actually – this information was discussed in the Capitol among Vice President Cheney and Republican senators. > > Lott said point-blank, referring to the “Washington Post” report, quote, “A lot of it came out of that room last Tuesday,” referring to the room where Cheney and Republican senators had lunch. I mentioned before that those exclusive meetings with Republicans also gave us the leaked reports that Cheney was indeed looking to get in amendments to justify torture by the CIA and other groups, I do see that and this latest leak as evidence that Republicans are beginning to be fed up with this administration. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/7 "2006-01-01T22:46:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Why? The CIA leak most likely came from someone in the CIA, not some politician. Same with the NSA leak-- very few politicians new about it, so the likely source is someone in the NSA. > > If someone wanted to undermine Bush politically, they picked a strange to do it. Why not wait until we are closer to the midterm elections? Good question. Both leaks would have been much more devastating this October. So what are some other possibilities? A sanctioned interagency pissing contest? The NSA leaks the prison story to hurt the CIA and the CIA retaliates with the monitoring story? It’s possible, I suppose, but why do it? What short or long term benefit would come to either agency? It would cause more harm to their mission than it would bring any benefit to undercutting the other organization. Rogue “lifers” within either organization doing it without permission? Possible. But the risk is huge for no reward other than feeling like an ideological warrior. I am assuming that the House and Senate Intelligence oversight committees were aware of both programs. That leads me to my personal theory that it was a Democratic staffer or politician with the intent of undermining the president politically and ending the practices. Whether ending the practices or the political damage was the paramount reason, both would logically occur if the information was leaked. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/8 "2006-01-01T22:47:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If someone wanted to undermine Bush politically, they picked a strange to do it. Why not wait until we are closer to the midterm elections? The leaker talked to the NY times at least a year ago, the Times sat on the story (wrongly, IMHO) for a year at the request of the gov’t, until finally publishing recently. Indeed it’s interesting that the Times, which is often accused of being a tool of the Dems, waited until after the 2004 election but a good bit before the 2006 election to release the story. It’s really a suboptimal time, if their purpose was to undermine Bush. > [@Evil One](#): > > Lastly, I’m sure those who called for an exhaustive investigation of the Plame leak to be just as zealous to find the source of these two. Intellectual consistency and all that. Right? Kinda hijacking your own thread here, but anyways, where laws broken in this case as they were in the Plame case? I belive there is no law in general against leaking classified info, only specific types. One of those types is the identity of covert operatives, so the Plame thing was certainly illegal. Does the leaking of the wiretaping operation also fall under a type of information which it is illegal to leak? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/9 "2006-01-01T22:52:40Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Why? The CIA leak most likely came from someone in the CIA, not some politician. Same with the NSA leak-- very few politicians new about it, so the likely source is someone in the NSA. > > If someone wanted to undermine Bush politically, they picked a strange to do it. Why not wait until we are closer to the midterm elections? See my previous reply, It seems that Republicans are not trusting the administration anymore. I see \*\*Evil One \*\* is not letting the evidence go in the way of his personal theory. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/10 "2006-01-01T22:54:07Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > Kinda hijacking your own thread here, but anyways, where laws broken in this case as they were in the Plame case? I belive there is no law in general against leaking classified info, only specific types. One of those types is the identity of covert operatives, so the Plame thing was certainly illegal. Does the leaking of the wiretaping operation also fall under a type of information which it is illegal to leak? Woops, nevermind. Apparently the leaking of classified information of anytype _is_ illegal. Not sure where I got the impression it was otherwise. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/11 "2006-01-01T22:54:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Why couldn’t the leak have come from people concerned about the legality/constitutionality of the actions? It’s not all about Bush, you know. You posted while I was typing. See Post 7. But the partisan hate toward GWB is as intense as I can remember toward anyone…so I was assuming it was a factor. Perhaps older dopers can compare the rancor toward GWB with that of Nixon during Watergate…or Johnson during Vietnam. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/12 "2006-01-01T22:57:36Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I mentioned before that those exclusive meetings with Republicans also gave us the leaked reports that Cheney was indeed looking to get in amendments to justify torture by the CIA and other groups, I do see that and this latest leak as evidence that Republicans are beginning to be fed up with this administration. Moderate Republicans like Susan Collins or Olympia Snowe? Someone who is disregarding the political impact in the name of “doing the right thing”? ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/13 "2006-01-01T23:01:57Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Why couldn’t the leak have come from people concerned about the legality/constitutionality of the actions? It’s not all about Bush, you know. From an [AP story](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060101/ap_on_go_pr_wh/domestic_spying) earlier today: \*Appearing with McConnell on “Fox News Sunday,” Sen. Charles Schumer (news, bio, voting record), D-N.Y., said the Justice Department investigation should explore the motivation of the person who leaked the information. “Was this somebody who had an ill purpose, trying to hurt the United States?” Schumer asked. “Or might it have been someone in the department who felt that this was wrong, legally wrong, that the law was being violated?” \* I believe the latter is the case. I doubt it was a Democrat because of the time frame - especially in regard to the NSA leak. The NY Times had this story a year ago. If their source was a member of the opposition, I cannot imagine they would have held the story this long. The source would have leaked it to other media outlets also. (Does anyone know when exactly they first received the information?) My sense in both cases is that it is an old-school Republican, ya know, the ones who actually support the Constitution, small government and the libertarian principles conservatives used to be noted for. Contrary to popular belief, they are still moderate Republicans out there who support human rights, the Fourth Amendment and all that. And in that sense I certainly hope that it is a Republican, so that they can engage in their long overdue debate of what the Republican party is supposed to stand for. I have never been able to fathom how true conservatives support Bush, Cheney and co. So I suppose it is both - they feel it is wrong and they want to undermine Bush, though not the United States. These leaks actually strengthen the US in my opinion since they bring these activities to light where citizens can voice their approval or disapproval - allow us to be a democracy and all that, not a police state in a perpetual war against drugs, oops, that was the 80’s excuse. (We won that war too, didn’t we… :rolleyes: ) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/14 "2006-01-01T23:03:33Z")
> [@Malodorous](#): > > I belive there is no law in general against leaking classified info, only specific types. Does the leaking of the wiretaping operation also fall under a type of information which it is illegal to leak? The subject matter doesn’t matter. If something is classified, it is illegal to disclose it to unauthorized persons. The higher the classification, the bigger the penalty. And I can assure you that the NSA information was classified at the highest levels. The CIA story is probably next, followed by the Plame information. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/15 "2006-01-01T23:04:01Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Moderate Republicans like Susan Collins or Olympia Snowe? Someone who is disregarding the political impact in the name of “doing the right thing”? I think they are fully aware of the political impact and that is one of the reasons they are doing it. They want these activities to brought into the political arena, not locked away behind the closed doors of smoke-filled rooms. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/16 "2006-01-01T23:04:49Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Perhaps older dopers can compare the rancor toward GWB with that of Nixon during Watergate…or Johnson during Vietnam. I was becoming politically aware during Johnson’s administration, so I can’t speak to that. I would put the rancor toward Nixon on the same level as Bush; I don’t see much difference. Matter of fact, I’d say that the tremendous support from the citizenry in the first term of each, and the pulling away of the citizenry and the Republicans from each of them as the manure got deeper is pretty much the same too. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/17 "2006-01-01T23:25:25Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > You posted while I was typing. See Post 7. But the partisan hate toward GWB is as intense as I can remember toward anyone…so I was assuming it was a factor. Perhaps older dopers can compare the rancor toward GWB with that of Nixon during Watergate…or Johnson during Vietnam. I think you underestimate the level of distrust the leadership of these agencies (and the military, for that matter) have towards the Bush Administration. The professionals that run these agencies have little regard for the people in the White House. They are regarded as incompetent rogues. Read the reports of those who have left or resigned - they are not complimentary. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/18 "2006-01-01T23:27:36Z")
I find it amusing that some folks get all a-twitter in a rush to find out who are the horrible shameless miscreants who leaked these shocking revelations about these scandals – doubtlessly to embarrass poor ol’ innocent George W. Bush for nefarious partisan ends – but can’t raise any effort to wonder why we still don’t know who was responsible for leaking the undercover identity of CIA agent Valerie Plame and the related ruination of the Brewster Jennings front company and the folks associated with it. > [@Evil One](#): > > But the partisan hate toward GWB is as intense as I can remember toward anyone… Have you ever considered that maybe the outrage he’s attracted is warranted because of the actions taken by the man and his Administration? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/19 "2006-01-01T23:55:14Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The subject matter doesn’t matter. If something is classified, it is illegal to disclose it to unauthorized persons. The higher the classification, the bigger the penalty. Cite, please. I would like to know the specific provision of law which prohibits the disclosure of any ol’ piece of classified information to any ol’ Joe on the street. I’m not talking about turning over secrets to “the enemy,” or disclosing the identities of covert operatives. I’d like to know the exact provision of law which provides for criminal penalties for disclosing some bit of classified information to a reporter. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/20 "2006-01-02T00:03:41Z")
I see no reason to believe that the info. was given to the press to effect Bush politically. Of course that’s possible, but I think it’s much more likely it was done for more idealistic reasons. I wouldn’t risk my reputation, and the possibility of prison, for some possible political advantage to my party, but I would for my country and the Constitution. If you work for the government and see that government being subverted by illegal activity, who do you go to? Your superiors? The F.B.I.? Some congressional oversight committee? All of those could blow you off and a short time later you might find yourself unemployed, or even charged w/ some trumped up crime. So you go to the media, you contact a reporter, somebody w/ the clout to get your story the attention you want. Reporters are trained to ask questions, to confirm details, to look for ulterior motives that might make them look like dupes. If you’re in a position to have valuable info. you most probably know that. Not to say that politically motivated leaks don’t get published, but why would the media (NYT) contact the administration and then wait a year if the story if purely political? The claims of damage to our security are also specious. How can any reasonably intelligent person believe that these terrorist (for lack of a better word) organizations are not sophisticated enough to protect themselves against espionage, especially electronic intrusion and eavesdropping. Even the, supposedly super secret, NSA has been frequently exposed in the media for over 30 years. Give me a break, what “secrets” were suddenly exposed by this news story? In the same vein, republicans claim that no damage was done by publicly exposing Valerie Plame. How the hell can they say that? How long was Plame a covert agent? How many foreign contacts did she have during that time? Don’t you think that those foreign gov’ts. might be a little suspicious of people that she had contact w/ now that it’s been revealed that she was a CIA spy? How have those people faired since the revelation? Are any of them missing? Any sudden accidents? Suicides? Will we ever know? What about those people that she had contact w/ as a part of her cover. People who thought she was a legitimate businesswoman and had no idea that she was an agent. Were any of them put under suspicion as a result of the expose’. It’s ludicrous to believe that no harm was done by revealing her status, even if she had been removed from covert activity prior to the outing. Then there’s also the motive. No probability of altruism here. It was a petty act of political revenge, no doubt about it, and there’s not a shadow of a doubt that Cheney was fully aware of what Libby was doing, if not the author of the deed. Bush claims the exigencies of war justifies the act, but he avoids seeking a legal solution, citing instead, his war powers as sufficient reason to violate existing law. The man took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, not disregard it when it didn’t suit his purposes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=2)