# Who is the leaker in the NSA and CIA prison stories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/21 "2006-01-02T00:58:37Z")
These leaks often come from career bureaucrats rather than from politicians. There could be many reasons, from an honest believe that the leak is the right thing to do to mundane turf wars and inter-agency rivalries and vendettas. Washington is a VERY leaky place. It’s been like that for a long time, but we haven’t heard much about during the 90’s because the stakes were low and no one cared all that much. Now the stakes are higher, so the leaks are being investigated and reported on. And of course the leaks should be prosecuted, even if they were done for the ‘right’ reasons. Because people with security clearances don’t get to decide when information should or should not be made public. They have no right to do so. You want to be a whistle blower? Fine. Stand up and take the consequences. It’s very dangerous to security to establish a standard that people who leak classified information for ‘good’ reasons can escape prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/22 "2006-01-02T01:32:29Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > And was their purpose simply to undermine GWB politically? What other purpose could have been served by the leak? Was the damage done by the leak worth revealing the information to the press? Justice. Generally, disclosure of illegal government activity comes under the heading of “whistleblowing.” In this case, it might put a stop to intrusive and unauthorized surveillance of U.S. citizens here, and torture of U.S. detainees abroad. That’s worth doing, whatever the “damage” – and what exactly is this “damage” you speak of, anyway? :dubious: > [@Evil One](#): > > Lastly, I’m sure those who called for an exhaustive investigation of the Plame leak to be just as zealous to find the source of these two. Intellectual consistency and all that. Right? :rolleyes: The cases are not parallel. Disclosing the identity of an undercover CIA operative might put her field contacts’ lives at risk. The disclosures in question here put nothing at risk but the Administration’s credibility. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/23 "2006-01-02T01:35:12Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > But the partisan hate toward GWB is as intense as I can remember toward anyone… Bill Clinton might beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/24 "2006-01-02T01:38:11Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The subject matter doesn’t matter. If something is classified, it is illegal to disclose it to unauthorized persons. The **legality** of the leaks is not what you started this thread to debate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/25 "2006-01-02T01:44:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Cite, please. I would like to know the specific provision of law which prohibits the disclosure of any ol’ piece of classified information to any ol’ Joe on the street. I’m not talking about turning over secrets to “the enemy,” or disclosing the identities of covert operatives. > > I’d like to know the exact provision of law which provides for criminal penalties for disclosing some bit of classified information to a reporter. [U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 798. Disclosure of classified information](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/37/sections/section_798.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/26 "2006-01-02T02:10:36Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > [U.S. Code : Title 18 : Section 798. Disclosure of classified information](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/37/sections/section_798.html) However, there are also whistleblower-protection statutes – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Whistleblower\_law:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Whistleblower_law:) > [@](#): > > Federal employees benefit from the Whistleblower Protection Act (5 U.S.C. § 1221(e)), and the No Fear Act (which made individual agencies directly responsible for the economic sanctions of unlawful retaliation). The Military Whistleblower Protection Act (10 U.S.C. § 1034), protects the right of members of the armed services to communicate with any member of Congress (even if copies of the communication are sent to others). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/27 "2006-01-02T02:17:50Z")
Thank you for providing the cite, John. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/28 "2006-01-02T02:22:38Z")
No, really, **Evil** – what “damage” did these leaks do to the United States, as distinct from the Bush Administration? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/29 "2006-01-02T02:26:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > However, there are also whistleblower-protection statutes – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Whistleblower\_law:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistleblower#Whistleblower_law:) Whistleblower status applies to fraud, waste and abuse of government property or resources. Not the disclosure of classified information in direct violation of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/30 "2006-01-02T02:29:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, really, **Evil** – what “damage” did these leaks do to the United States, as distinct from the Bush Administration? That question is impossible for me to answer, as I’m not directly involved in the national security apparatus and not privy to current intelligence efforts. Whether the leaks meet your standard of damage or not, they were still a violation of the law…as was the Plame leak. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/31 "2006-01-02T02:29:06Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Whistleblower status applies to fraud, waste and abuse of government property or resources. Not the disclosure of classified information in direct violation of the law. Cite? (Actually, this might be a question no court has yet decided.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/32 "2006-01-02T02:35:00Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > That question is impossible for me to answer, as I’m not directly involved in the national security apparatus and not privy to current intelligence efforts. But the **existence** of the matters disclosed was far more damaging to our republic than the disclosure. It’s astonishing that you can’t seem to get your mind around that basic and obvious fact. Jonathan Schell has the right take on this: The Bush Admin has crossed a line here. Instead of denying the illegal acts, as it always did before, it has openly claimed the authority to do them. That is a very alarming trend. [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060109/schell:](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060109/schell:) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/33 "2006-01-02T03:11:34Z")
From U.S. Code Title 18 Section 798 **(John’s** link): > [@](#): > > The term ‘‘classified information’’ means information which, at > the time of a violation of this section, is, for reasons of > national security, specifically designated by a United States > Government Agency for limited or restricted dissemination or > distribution; How do we even know whether the information disclosed **was** ever designated as “classified”? (I don’t think a general intra-agency understanding would qualify.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/34 "2006-01-02T03:18:25Z")
From the same statute: > [@](#): > > a) Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, > transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, > or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or > interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign > government to the detriment of the United States any classified > information - > (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any code, > cipher, or cryptographic system of the United States or any > foreign government; or > (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or > repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or > planned for use by the United States or any foreign government > for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or > (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the > United States or any foreign government; or > (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence > from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the > same to have been obtained by such processes - > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten > years, or both. That might arguably apply to disclosure of the NSA domestic-surveillance activities – but not to disclosure of the CIA’s “black prisons.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/35 "2006-01-02T03:40:20Z")
It must be getting really difficult to be a Bush apologist. They appear to be reduced to distracting attention away from one administration scandal by directing it towards a different administration scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/36 "2006-01-02T04:18:09Z")
Or maybe we just don’t think some of these ‘scandals’ are actually scandals. So far, it looks to me like in this latest thing there weren’t any laws broken, Bush did due diligence to get a sign-off from the justice department and notify Congress, and the program may have actually helped fight the war on terror. And so far, it looks like the majority of Americans agree. You guys live in an echo chamber where everything Bush does that is questionable gets elevated to a high crime, and then you scream back and forth about how evil it all is. All evidence to the contrary gets pushed aside. Over time, all you can see is the huge pile of ‘scandals’, lies, and malfeasance you think Bush has engaged in, and nothing else. The right did the same thing with Clinton. From Vince Foster to Travelgate to Whitewater to Waco, indictments of white house officials, Monica, allegations of influence buying by the Chinese, plus all the ‘out there’ accusations that floated around Republican circles - plus never hearing the good things that happened, or paying attention to the evidence that contradicted what they wanted to believe. By the time Clinton was out of office, there were plenty of nutbar Republicans convinced that he was a lying, murdering, traitorous monster. Bush makes plenty of mistakes. He’s a lousy speaker. His administration made lots of bad judgements in carrying out the war in Iraq. But so far, he strikes me as someone who is interested in doing the right thing for the country. He’s not in bed with big oil, he’s not being run by Dick Cheney, there is no connection to Haliburton, and he’s not running roughshod over the rights of the people. The current dispute over the wiretap stuff is not criminal - it’s a typical dispute between the Executive and Leglislative branch over where authority lies. There are plenty of legal scholars who have weighed in on both sides of the question, which tells you that it’s a close decision. As you would expect. This is a losing issue for Democrats. The fact that Bush is out there defending this program vigorously instead of running from it tells you that he still thinks he’s right, and so far he’s got the people on his side - 64% of them, as of the last poll I saw. That’s pretty much everyone but the partisan Democrats. Good luck getting traction with this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/37 "2006-01-02T04:21:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > So far, it looks to me like in this latest thing there weren’t any laws broken, Bush did due diligence to get a sign-off from the justice department and notify Congress, and the program may have actually helped fight the war on terror. 😕 Are we talking about the same story? Do you have a cite or anything for any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/38 "2006-01-02T04:24:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the **existence** of the matters disclosed was far more damaging to our republic than the disclosure. It’s astonishing that you can’t seem to get your mind around that basic and obvious fact. You must work for the CIA, BG. Because only by knowing the status of each investigation that the intelligence community is involved in would allow you to make that statement with such bold certainty. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/39 "2006-01-02T04:24:37Z")
[Moderator Mode] I have deleted the quotation that **BrainGlutton** submitted in post #32 because it exceeded the SDMB view of Fair Use. While we are not so scrupulous as to count words, our guideline has generally been to limit quotations to less than 10% of a work. Just a reminder to all regarding our policies. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/40 "2006-01-02T04:26:07Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > It must be getting really difficult to be a Bush apologist. They appear to be reduced to distracting attention away from one administration scandal by directing it towards a different administration scandal. Did you read the OP? Or are you jumping to this conclusion because I haven’t accused GWB of impaling the babies of liberals on pikes in front of the White House? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=3)