# Who is the leaker in the NSA and CIA prison stories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/41 "2006-01-02T04:27:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > From U.S. Code Title 18 Section 798 **(John’s** link): > > How do we even know whether the information disclosed **was** ever designated as “classified”? (I don’t think a general intra-agency understanding would qualify.) I can assure you that anything involving the NSA and information gathering methods is classified. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/42 "2006-01-02T04:34:37Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This is a losing issue for Democrats. The fact that Bush is out there defending this program vigorously instead of running from it tells you that he still thinks he’s right, and so far he’s got the people on his side - 64% of them, as of the last poll I saw. That’s pretty much everyone but the partisan Democrats. Good luck getting traction with this. Great post, Sam. I, too, expect wailing, gnashing of teeth and rending of garments from Democrats this November. In fact, I was asking myself this morning where the next round of “vote fraud” was going to come from. Getting back to the subject of my OP, I’m curious how long the Times reporters will stay in jail this time before they give up their source. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/43 "2006-01-02T04:37:17Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > In fact, I was asking myself this morning where the next round of “vote fraud” was going to come from. Florida’s always a safe bet. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/44 "2006-01-02T05:10:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > …That might arguably apply to disclosure of the NSA domestic-surveillance activities… > [@](#): > > … > (1) concerning the nature, preparation, or use of any **code, > cipher, or cryptographic system **of the** United States** or any > **foreign government** ; or > (2) concerning the design, construction, use, maintenance, or > repair of any device, apparatus, or appliance used or prepared or > planned for use by the United States or any **foreign government** > for cryptographic or communication intelligence purposes; or > (3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the > United States or any **foreign government** ; or > (4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence > from the communications of any **foreign government** , knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes -… Isn’t this section about encrypted data and the means of transmitting such data? I.E. [Enigma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIGMA) I thought it’s been well established that the NSA is expressly forbidden from engaging in domestic surveillance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/45 "2006-01-02T05:14:53Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Isn’t this section about encrypted data and the means of transmitting such data? I.E. [Enigma](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIGMA) Well, I was thinking the NSA domestic surveillance might be argued to come under subparagraph (3) – “concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government.” But it is a close call. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/46 "2006-01-02T05:25:22Z")
I think sections 1 and 2 explain what sections 3 and 4 are referring to (communication intelligence activities/processes of communication intelligence). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/47 "2006-01-02T07:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you read the OP? Or are you jumping to this conclusion because I haven’t accused GWB of impaling the babies of liberals on pikes in front of the White House? So when you wrote in the OP _“Lastly, I’m sure those who called for an exhaustive investigation of the Plame leak to be just as zealous to find the source of these two. Intellectual consistency and all that. Right?”_ you weren’t refering to the Plame leak even though you mentioned it by name? Because I figured this was another attempt at trying to say there were different standards applied to Democrat and Republican scandals. But not a very well executed one because both the Plame leak and the NSA/CIA scandals involve a Republican administration. Which is pretty much what I meant when I wrote, _“They appear to be reduced to distracting attention away from one administration scandal by directing it towards a different administration scandal.”_ On a seperate issue, there certainly is the possibility that this leak was politically motivated by partisan opponents of the Bush administration. (Although that doesn’t excuse anything - if you told my wife that I had an affair because you’re mad at me for letting my dog poop on your lawn, my adultery isn’t excusable because you acted from petty motives.) But to answer your question _“What other purpose could have been served by the leak?”_ it is possible that somebody with no political agenda felt that it’s wrong for the government to break the law and exposed these secret programs for that reason. > [@](#): > > The fact that Bush is out there defending this program vigorously instead of running from it tells you that he still thinks he’s right, and so far he’s got the people on his side - 64% of them, as of the last poll I saw. That’s pretty much everyone but the partisan Democrats. Good luck getting traction with this. Bush has repeatedly demonstrated that he knows that he can claim anything, “up is left, black is east” and there are people who will believe him as long as he sticks to his story. Bush has long passed the point where he can say “trust me” and have it mean anything. As for the power of majorities to prove anything, I could produce plenty of poll results “proving” anything, going all the way back to November 2000 when more people thought Al Gore should be President than thought George Bush should. Polls are a waste of time for determining facts. And for the record, I’m not a partisan, a liberal, or a Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/48 "2006-01-02T16:12:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, really, **Evil** – what “damage” did these leaks do to the United States, as distinct from the Bush Administration? This is almost too easy. Could you provide a few cites on how the Plame leak “damaged” the United States? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/49 "2006-01-02T16:57:44Z")
[It’s much easier even than that, numbnut.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair#Actual_damage_caused) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/50 "2006-01-02T16:59:13Z")
Oops, wrong forum. Strike that last word, please. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/51 "2006-01-02T17:04:33Z")
Anyway, that’s only the _direct_ damage, based only on what hasn’t been redacted from public records. The indirect damage includes CIA operatives no longer being sure that they won’t have their own covers blown, and their lives endangered, because of providing intelligence that doesn’t fit the administration’s preconceptions. Maybe you don’t count that. In addition, operatives’ contacts can only be more reticent about providing information, especially the most sensitive and useful type, to people whose identities as operatives can be revealed - that would endanger their own lives. Care to explain why you _don’t_ think it matters, if it’s “almost too easy”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/52 "2006-01-02T17:16:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is almost too easy. > > Could you provide a few cites on how the Plame leak “damaged” the United States? > > Regards, > Shodan I do not recall saying the Plame leak **had** “damaged the United States.” The damage was of a different order. See post #22. There is the possibility that the leak caused at least one death, besides compromising the front company, Brewster Jennings & Associates. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame\_affair#Actual\_damage\_caused](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair#Actual_damage_caused). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/53 "2006-01-02T17:22:35Z")
Quiz time: Who said [this](http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/1999/bush_speech_042699.html) at a CIA ceremony: > [@](#): > > Even though I’m a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors. The answer is just one click away, if you dare. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/54 "2006-01-02T18:21:41Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This is a losing issue for Democrats. The fact that Bush is out there defending this program vigorously instead of running from it tells you that he still thinks he’s right, and so far he’s got the people on his side - 64% of them, as of the last poll I saw. That’s pretty much everyone but the partisan Democrats. Good luck getting traction with this. Now really, Jesus! Come on. One-trick ponies at least take time to sleep and eat in between. I mean, could you let one thread go without this illogical, unfounded, and at this point crazy-desperate appeal to “how bad this is going to go for the Democrats” thing? It is just so fucking tired. We get that you think this. Fine. It is your emotional response to any political discussion. Fine. DEMOCRATSWILLLOSE! DEMOCRATSWILLLOSE! **Sam Stone** is in the hizzouse. The answer is simple: Let justice be done though the heavens fall. If the majority of people want to support a party so rife with corruption, deception and criminality, at least they will do so knowingly. It’s not just a losing proposition for the Democrats, but for the country. Now, spare us this admonition for one fucking thread, please. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/55 "2006-01-02T18:26:51Z")
I think there is a lot of value in analyzing the political as well as the legal angle of these types of issues. We are talking about politicians, after all. And, I think you’ll find that \*\*Sam \*\*will point out losing propositions for Republicans as well. It’s just that, recently, the Democrats have been losing a lot more than Republicans, in case you hadn’t noticed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/56 "2006-01-02T20:25:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Oops, wrong forum. Strike that last word, please. You really need to watch your Forum headings a bit more carefully. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/57 "2006-01-02T20:42:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think there is a lot of value in analyzing the political as well as the legal angle of these types of issues. We are talking about politicians, after all. And, I think you’ll find that \*\*Sam \*\*will point out losing propositions for Republicans as well. It’s just that, recently, the Democrats have been losing a lot more than Republicans, in case you hadn’t noticed. Maybe you did not notice because the right wing media minimized what happened recently?: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4417560.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4417560.stm) > [@](#): > > Democrats in US rack up victories > > Michael Bloomberg easily defeated his rival in the election > President George Bush’s Republicans have fared badly in state and local polls, losing races across the US. > Gov Arnold Schwarzenegger was defeated on a raft of proposals that would have made sweeping changes in California. > > Democrats held onto the governorships of New Jersey and Virginia, where President Bush personally entered the fray to support a Republican candidate. > > Only in New York City did a Republican do well, with Mayor Michael Bloomberg winning re-election by a large margin. > > The moderate former Democrat recorded the largest margin of victory ever for a Republican in solidly Democratic New York. > > … > > Democratic Party chairman Howard Dean said voters had reacted against President Bush’s party. > > Voters “don’t like the abuse of power. They don’t like the culture of corruption. They want the nation to go in a different way,” he said. > > While it is still unlikely the Democrats will manage to win back control of Congress in those elections, Tuesday’s wins have given them considerable cheer, the BBC’s Justin Webb in Washington says. Yep, it is not going to be easy, but it will be hard for Republicans of conscience to continue tolerating a Republican party with no control whatsoever, there is need for balance in our government. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/58 "2006-01-02T20:53:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I think there is a lot of value in analyzing the political as well as the legal angle of these types of issues. We are talking about politicians, after all. And, I think you’ll find that \*\*Sam \*\*will point out losing propositions for Republicans as well. It’s just that, recently, the Democrats have been losing a lot more than Republicans, in case you hadn’t noticed. One can hardly call it an analysis when it is offered in every thread on any political issue. And I would be surprised if you could find an even discussion of losing Republican positions from **Sam**. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/59 "2006-01-02T21:04:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Maybe you did not notice because the right wing media minimized what happened recently?: > > [BBC NEWS | Americas | Democrats in US rack up victories](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4417560.stm) > > Yep, it is not going to be easy, but it will be hard for Republicans of conscience to continue tolerating a Republican party with no control whatsoever, there is need for balance in our government. Absolutely. Here in Canada we have seen when one party marginalizes itself and gives the other one de-facto single-party control over the country. Scandal after scandal ensues. Politics is a corrupting business, and the only thing that keeps politicians on the straight and narrow is the fear of losing power. If they lose that fear, look out. That’s why it’s dismaying to see the Democrats working so hard to marginalize themselves. You really need to bitch-slap the Republicans a bit. They deserve it. But the NSA issue is a loser for Democrats, as I said. If Americans see Bush as working hard to protect them, then engaging in some argument over executive vs Legislative power or whether Bush crossed the right ‘t’s just isn’t going to have traction, and it actually plays into Bush’s strengths and Democrats’ weaknesses. But since you think I’m always talking about what’s bad for Democrats, let me switch gears and give you a winning strategy: Pay close attention to the Abramoff scandal. You guys can not win on national security. Certainly not by characterizing everything Bush does to protect the country as a crime and a scandal. Most Americans just don’t see it that way, and it only reinforces your party’s stereotype as weak on defense. But corruption is another matter. The Democrats have some positive stereotypes going for them as well, and one of them is that they are idealistic and honest, whereas Republicans are seen as tools of big business and more likely to be corrupted. So hammer them. Put the ‘Duke-Stir’ front and center as the image of the current Republican party. Put Abramoff’s smug face in your ads. Campaign on 'taking back government from the lobbyists and cleaning up Washington". But before doing that, you need to make sure that no prominent Democrats get caught up in this particular scandal or any others. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/60 "2006-01-02T21:50:58Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > But the NSA issue is a loser for Democrats, as I said. If Americans see Bush as working hard to protect them, then engaging in some argument over executive vs Legislative power or whether Bush crossed the right ‘t’s just isn’t going to have traction, and it actually plays into Bush’s strengths and Democrats’ weaknesses. Americans as a group probably won’t worry too much about this, true. Most people don’t think about their civil liberties much (except when it comes to guns). That is not the problem Republicans have, though. Members of Congress are upset about the lack of cooperation the White House is showing them. Their job is oversight, and the Administration is not allowing them to provide that. Add to that the fact that everything Bush touches lately turns to crap (Katrina, Iraq, Terry Shaivo, etc.) and it won’t be long before Republicans in congress turn against Bush. Just wait until Americans realize that the free and democratic elections in Iraq freely and democratically elected a Muslim theocracy aligned with Iran. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=4)