# Who is the leaker in the NSA and CIA prison stories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/61 "2006-01-02T21:58:57Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > Just wait until Americans realize that the free and democratic elections in Iraq freely and democratically elected a Muslim theocracy aligned with Iran. Well, in all fairness, I think it’s too soon to tell. Most political parties in Iraq have a religious identity (which in that setting is roughly coterminous with “ethnic” identity – like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland), which means any fair election will produce a “Shi’ite”-majority parliament; but not all the Shi’ite parties are political Islamists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/62 "2006-01-02T23:17:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I do not recall saying the Plame leak **had** “damaged the United States.” You didn’t - you seemed to be saying that the NSA leaks were not important because there was no evidence that the US had suffered “damage”. Since no evidence seems to be forthcoming that there was any “damage” from the Plame leak, I assumed you were arguing from some principle beyond “It’s different for Republicans”. > [@](#): > > The damage was of a different order. See post #22. There is the possibility that the leak caused at least one death, besides compromising the front company, Brewster Jennings & Associates. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame\_affair#Actual\_damage\_caused](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair#Actual_damage_caused). Well, possibility, I suppose. Although your own cite says: > [@](#): > > However there is no direct proof that the anonymous star has anything to do with the Plame scandal. If you are arguing that the Plame leak was wrong because it is possible that it damaged our intelligence-gathering capability, then you will need to provide some reason to conclude that it is not possible that the NSA leaks did the same. The Wiki cite doesn’t mention any damage, so **Evil Captor** ’s little outburst is unwarranted as well as contempible. If the principle is “it’s wrong for Republicans”, then never mind. That kind of thing does not seem to be something the Usual Suspects can debate in good faith. As we have seen. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/63 "2006-01-02T23:29:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You didn’t - you seemed to be saying that the NSA leaks were not important because there was no evidence that the US had suffered “damage”. Since no evidence seems to be forthcoming that there was any “damage” from the Plame leak, I assumed you were arguing from some principle beyond “It’s different for Republicans”. My point was, the Plame leak might have cause **some** kind of regrettable damage, and, at the very least, certainly raised the danger of such. The leak of the CIA “black prisons” story damages . . . absolutely nothing and nobody of any value. Quite the reverse. Damaging that particular program has value. Ditto with the leak of the NSA’s illegal wiretapping of American citizens. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/64 "2006-01-03T00:12:29Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > You posted while I was typing. See Post 7. But the partisan hate toward GWB is as intense as I can remember toward anyone…so I was assuming it was a factor. Perhaps older dopers can compare the rancor toward GWB with that of Nixon during Watergate…or Johnson during Vietnam. As I recall, the president (Nixon) felt himself above the law and skirted it for political ends. He was exposed to everyones disgust, and resigned before he could be impeached. This time, it’s different. The President felt himself above the law and skirted it for political ends. He was exposed, but a deft combination of media spin and the unflinching support of his apologists-whose rancor toward anyone opposed to their party trumps any qualms they might have about having he United States Constitution used as presidential toilet paper (it is “just a goddamned piece of paper,” after all)- are less incensed at the erosion of checks and balances than they are at having their figurehead look bad. leaking the name of a covert agent as an act of retaliation =bad leaking the fact that the administration is subverting the law =whistleblowing ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/65 "2006-01-03T02:26:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since no evidence seems to be forthcoming that there was any “damage” from the Plame leak Are you serious? > [@](#): > > If you are arguing that the Plame leak was wrong because it is possible that it damaged our intelligence-gathering capability, then you will need to provide some reason to conclude that it is not possible that the NSA leaks did the same. You’re equating a dangerous personal attack, for no definable benefit to anyone whatsoever, with _the exposure of_ a willful attempt to flout the law and the Constitution, while simply ignoring what’s happened. Yes, apparently you _are_ serious. > [@](#): > > The Wiki cite doesn’t mention any damage, so **Evil Captor** ’s little outburst is unwarranted as well as contempible. Try \*reading \* it. :rolleyes: And that’s your argument for the defense - that there is no public knowledge, declassified by the culprits themselves, of the names of anyone whose life has been lost because of it. Therefore any questioning of it is simple, reflexive, mindless Bush hatred. Good God Almighty, man. Is there \*any \* limit to your eagerness to find excuses for these people? ---
**Author:** ![David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David\_God\_of\_Frogs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_God_of_Frogs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/66 "2006-01-03T02:28:00Z")
> [@sam stone](#): > > You want to be a whistle blower? Fine. Stand up and take the consequences. It’s very dangerous to security to establish a standard that people who leak classified information for ‘good’ reasons can escape prosecution. If that is the law now, I should hope it gets changed. I’d like to know when the government’s doing illegal activity, not the least because it’s my tax dollars. I’m still waiting on **Brainglutton’s** request for any reason that leaking this could have hurt our national security. Rule of law, as Bush understands so well in Iraq, helps our national security. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/67 "2006-01-03T03:07:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The leak of the CIA “black prisons” story damages . . . absolutely nothing and nobody of any value. Quite the reverse. Damaging that particular program has value. > > Ditto with the leak of the NSA’s illegal wiretapping of American citizens. > [@bizzwire](#): > > leaking the name of a covert agent as an act of retaliation =bad > > leaking the fact that the administration is subverting the law =whistleblowing The problem is that you guys don’t get to choose whether the content of the leaked classified information justifies its release. Neither does anyone else. It’s very simple. Giving classified information to someone without clearance for it is breaking the law. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/68 "2006-01-03T03:15:52Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The problem is that you guys don’t get to choose whether the content of the leaked classified information justifies its release. Neither does anyone else. It’s very simple. Giving classified information to someone without clearance for it is breaking the law. :dubious: :mad: Breaking the law? **Breaking the law?!** I hope you are not suggesting, **Evil One,** that if you had been in the shoes of the leakers of the CIA “black prisons” program, you would have been so amoral, cowardly and **treasonous** as to balk at committing a felony to put an end to the whole abominable business! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/69 "2006-01-03T03:36:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: :mad: Breaking the law? **Breaking the law?!** I hope you are not suggesting, **Evil One,** that if you had been in the shoes of the leakers of the CIA “black prisons” program, you would have been so amoral, cowardly and **treasonous** as to balk at committing a felony to put an end to the whole abominable business! Treason is in the eye of the beholder…and ultimately a court of law. Yes, I am saying that. If I were in the CIA or NSA, I would not reveal classified information. I had a security clearance in the military and I did not violate it then, either. Classification exists for many reasons…one of which is to prevent individuals from deciding which information isn’t “really” classified for whatever reason. I hope the people that broke the law in all three cases pay for it. Especially if they impeded the fight against AQ in any way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/70 "2006-01-03T03:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > one of which is to prevent individuals from deciding which information isn’t “really” classified for whatever reason. The other two, of course, are to protect the political butt of people who are doing shameful things from being discovered and to subvert the Constitution by hiding illegal actions under the false claim of “security.” Security classifications for all three reasons date back decades, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/71 "2006-01-03T05:24:34Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem is that you guys don’t get to choose whether the content of the leaked classified information justifies its release. Neither does anyone else. It’s very simple. Giving classified information to someone without clearance for it is breaking the law. Even if it just slips out accidentally during a conversation with a reporter or two? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/72 "2006-01-03T14:42:04Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Even if it just slips out accidentally during a conversation with a reporter or two? Even then. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/73 "2006-01-03T15:00:00Z")
So what do you do when you know a law is being broken, and the only way to stop it is to blow the whistle? Do you actually advocate simply continuing to knowingly fail to stop a serious crime in order to avoid breaking a lesser one? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/74 "2006-01-03T15:15:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > So what do you do when you know a law is being broken, and the only way to stop it is to blow the whistle? Do you actually advocate simply continuing to knowingly fail to stop a serious crime in order to avoid breaking a lesser one? Contact your representative in Congress. If you’re a Washington insider (as these folks probably are) you contact the Senate Intel or Judiciary committee. There are options other than calling the NYT. But, if you’re so certain that the law is being broken or the constutition is being subverted, then go on record with the NYT. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/75 "2006-01-03T15:46:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But, if you’re so certain that the law is being broken or the constutition is being subverted, then go on record with the NYT. I thought of this as well last night. It seems that the nobility of those defending the principals they hold so dear seems to stop at the door of public scrutiny. If you are going to be a martyr for civil liberties then go the full monty. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/76 "2006-01-03T17:00:08Z")
Lott’s effects on The Hill are getting more and more interesting here… Realisitcally, if he’s going to run in 2006 (he’s supossedly undecided), how long can he wait to announce his candidacy? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/77 "2006-01-03T17:04:48Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > I thought of this as well last night. It seems that the nobility of those defending the principals they hold so dear seems to stop at the door of public scrutiny. > > If you are going to be a martyr for civil liberties then go the full monty. Wanting the truth to be known is equivalent to being a martyr? ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/78 "2006-01-03T17:17:14Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Wanting the truth to be known is equivalent to being a martyr? It might as well be… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/79 "2006-01-03T17:51:24Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Wanting the truth to be known is equivalent to being a martyr? You are missing the point. People are claiming that the leak is justified because laws were broken or the constiution was violated. But the fact is, only the courts can determine that, not the court of public opinion. But, if you feel so strongly that you can decide these things, then go on record in the newspaper instead of remaining an “unnamed source”. If you insist on remaining unnamed, then that tells me you have some doubts about your ability to judge things. In that case, go thru proper channels and let the courts decide. Remember, this is not just betraying a person confidence with some public official, but of knowingly violating the law against revealing classified information. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/80 "2006-01-03T18:18:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But the fact is, only the courts can determine that, not the court of public opinion. A matter can only _get_ to the courts if it’s _brought_ to the courts. If the (okay, alleged) misdeeds are being done by the very organization responsible for doing so, and has the power to keep it secret, then how’s that gonna happen? > [@](#): > > If you insist on remaining unnamed, then that tells me you have some doubts about your ability to judge things. It doesn’t tell you that the whistleblower may have reason to fear personal retribution? > [@](#): > > Remember, this is not just betraying a person confidence with some public official, but of knowingly violating the law against revealing classified information. It isn’t just that, either. It’s revealing a violation of the law against domestic wiretapping, a law that, you’ll note, has good reason to exist. Why do you not seem to include that in your considerations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=5)