# Who is the leaker in the NSA and CIA prison stories? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 1, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000 "2006-01-01T22:13:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/81 "2006-01-03T18:18:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > People are claiming that the leak is justified because laws were broken or the constiution was violated. But the fact is, only the courts can determine that, not the court of public opinion. Neither of which will ever get a chance to hear or decide the question, if nobody in the know ever lets anything leak. Or is that supposed to be the point? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/82 "2006-01-03T18:43:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A matter can only _get_ to the courts if it’s _brought_ to the courts. If the (okay, alleged) misdeeds are being done by the very organization responsible for doing so, and has the power to keep it secret, then how’s that gonna happen? Congress can appoint a special prosecuter to investigate and bring up charges, if appropriate. Which is exactly how the courts will get involved in the situation now, after the leak. There was nothing revealed about specific people who were wiretapped, so no one affected will be able to press charges (they won’t know who they are). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/83 "2006-01-03T19:00:57Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Congress can appoint a special prosecuter to investigate and bring up charges, if appropriate. Which is exactly how the courts will get involved in the situation now, after the leak. I see. And how would that happen **without** a leak? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/84 "2006-01-03T19:13:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I see. And how would that happen **without** a leak? See post 74. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/85 "2006-01-03T19:18:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > See post 74. And that’s not illegal? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/86 "2006-01-03T19:48:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And that’s not illegal? The senior members of both paries on those committees have security clearence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/87 "2006-01-03T19:48:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Congress can appoint a special prosecuter to investigate and bring up charges, if appropriate. Which is exactly how the courts will get involved in the situation now, after the leak. Nope. The “investigation” is to be performed by the Justice Department _itself_, not Congress. Can’t you smell the whitewash from there? For another, there is no longer a special prosecutor law, as a cirect result of its recent spectacular abuse. > [@](#): > > There was nothing revealed about specific people who were wiretapped, so no one affected will be able to press charges (they won’t know who they are). You know that, huh? How? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/88 "2006-01-03T19:55:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nope. The “investigation” is to be performed by the Justice Department _itself_, not Congress. Can’t you smell the whitewash from there? How you figure that? The suspect agencies here are NSA and CIA, not DOJ. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > For another, there is no longer a special prosecutor law, as a cirect result of its recent spectacular abuse. Nitpick: The **independent counsel** (appointed by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit) expired in 1999. The statute providing for a **special counsel** (appointed by the DOJ or by Congress) is still in effect. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special\_prosecutor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_prosecutor) Of course, a better solution still would be: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/89 "2006-01-03T20:04:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nope. The “investigation” is to be performed by the Justice Department _itself_, not Congress. Can’t you smell the whitewash from there? I said IF this gets to the courts (which it probably won’t), it’ll be because Congress appoints a special prosecutor. > [@](#): > > For another, there is no longer a special prosecutor law, as a cirect result of its recent spectacular abuse. Cite? I think you’re talking about the independent council. What do you think the guy investigating the Plame case is (Fitzgeral)? Special Prosecutor! > [@](#): > > You know that, huh? How? I don’t know this, but it hasn’t been published. If you have some info that we know any names, let’s see it. If the guy who leaked this actually named names, he’d be in a **hel** l of a lot of hot water-- much more than he is now. I hope he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/90 "2006-01-03T20:07:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, a better solution still would be: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=264462) Since this has never been tried IRL, we have no idea if it would be better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/91 "2006-01-03T20:11:25Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How you figure that? The suspect agencies here are NSA and CIA, not DOJ. And who do they report to? > [@](#): > > Nitpick: The **independent counsel** (appointed by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit) expired in 1999. Ah, yes, thanks. > [@John Mace](#): > > I said IF this gets to the courts (which it probably won’t), it’ll be because Congress appoints a special prosecutor. And this is where political reality enters into it, in the form of single-party control. Agreed, the case probably won’t get to the courts, but you’re shying away from saying that’s because of lack of merit rather than a political butt-covering act. > [@](#): > > I don’t know this Then don’t state it as a fact. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/92 "2006-01-03T20:24:01Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And who do they report to? Well, all three agencies ultimately . . . Ah. I see. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/93 "2006-01-03T21:04:03Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Since this has never been tried IRL, we have no idea if it would be better or worse. Perhaps if one or two states were to try it out first . . . That’s one of the advantages of federalism, isn’t it? “Little laboratories!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/94 "2006-01-04T00:20:06Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And this is where political reality enters into it, in the form of single-party control. Agreed, the case probably won’t get to the courts, but you’re shying away from saying that’s because of lack of merit rather than a political butt-covering act. No, I’m not shying away from that. I think this is a classic power struggle between the exective and legislative branches, and that they will work it out betwween themselves. > [@](#): > > Then don’t state it as a fact. Meh. AFAWK, this is true. I suspect that if the NYT had names, they’d at least say they did, even if they wouldn’t publish the actual names. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/95 "2006-01-04T00:22:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Perhaps if one or two states were to try it out first . . . That’s one of the advantages of federalism, isn’t it? “Little laboratories!” 🙂 Sure is. I’d love ot have a bunch of little laboratories so we could try out (and discredit 🙂 ) your theories. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/96 "2006-01-04T13:47:33Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And that’s your argument for the defense - that there is no public knowledge, declassified by the culprits themselves, of the names of anyone whose life has been lost because of it. No, actually my argument is that your assertion that someone died as a result of the Plame leak seems to be nothing but a fantasy. > [@](#): > > Therefore any questioning of it is simple, reflexive, mindless Bush hatred. “Any questioning”? No. Your allegations? Yes. This is the kind of “grassy knoll” reasoning that leads to Oliver Stone movies. Unless you are willing to believe that Clinton really did have all those people killed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/97 "2006-01-04T15:24:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, actually my argument is that your assertion that someone died as a result of the Plame leak seems to be nothing but a fantasy. You said it was “too easy” to refute the assertion that the Plame leak had caused damage. You haven’t begun to do so. Are you ever going to, or will you just keep on hoping it will go away somehow while you try to personally demean anyone who tries to pull your blinkers off? > [@John Mace](#): > > No, I’m not shying away from that. I think this is a classic power struggle between the exective and legislative branches, and that they will work it out betwween themselves. Yes, you’re shying away from the political realities here. Both branches are controlled by the same party, which is controlled by the same ideology, whose ideologues see themselves more as partners in reshaping the country to serve their purposes against a domestic opposition they see as enemies rather than fellow citizens. The “power struggle” is patently not between the Executive and Legislative, that’s just org chart stuff; it’s between the Republican Right and those who instead “hate America”. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/98 "2006-01-04T22:14:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > The senior members of both paries on those committees have security clearence. Wouldn’t it be against the law for the senior members on those comittees spilled the beans then? What if it was one of those senior members that was the source of the leak. What then? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/99 "2006-01-05T01:19:18Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You said it was “too easy” to refute the assertion that the Plame leak had caused damage. You haven’t begun to do so. Are you ever going to, or will you just keep on hoping it will go away somehow while you try to personally demean anyone who tries to pull your blinkers off? I don’t have to refute it; you have to prove it. So far, you haven’t. All we seem to see is the bare allegation that leaks about ongoing operations in the global war on terror cannot possibly have damaged the US. Whereas confirmation of what seems to have been cocktail party gossip for the last several years, for a person who is not undercover nor at any kind of risk, definitely has. And your proof is that a star appeared over Langley. What are you, Caspar, Belthazzar, or Melchior? And you might have noticed that I am not the one personally demeaning anyone. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000/100 "2006-01-05T02:57:16Z")
I just got back from an “Emergency Meeting” held in Lexington, by Congressman Ed Markey. I went because I was a little fuzzy on the specifics of the NSA case. After hearing from Congressman Markey and speakers from the ACLU and EPIC, I left none the wiser, because about all that has come to light is that the NSA has been conducting intelligence-gathering activities on US citizens without congressional or judicial oversight, operating outside the boundaries set forth by FISA. That’s all the Congressman knows, that’s all the ACLU knows, and, unless they’ve been hiring Jack Abramoff, that’s all that Al Qaida knows, too. So let’s put the whole “Damage to America” and “Aiding the Enemy” thing to bed, shall we? (Unless you fear that we’ve now tipped off America’s Enemies[sup]tm[/sup] to the fact that the US government might conceivably be listening to their phone calls and reading their e-mail). So, to the **OP** , I have changed my view, and am in total agreement that we should have full Senate and House hearings on the matter. And while we’re at it, let’s also find out: -The text of the Presidential finding which established the program. -What specific oversight, and checks are in place. -How much it costs. -What it does, exactly. -Why federal laws do not apply to the executive branch. -The nature of the Quaker/Al-Quada “axis” Ready when you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-leaker-in-the-nsa-and-cia-prison-stories/338000.md?page=6)