# Who is the most incompetent character in Tolkien's legendarium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161 "2011-03-27T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/41 "2011-03-28T10:02:24Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > The single most valuable thing in Smaug’s entire hoard, and they bury it in the dirt with a dead body that has neither use for it nor the ability to enjoy it. Now _that_’s stupid! Why, what were they going to do? Sell it? It was only a symbolic bauble, and symbolic baubles can be just as symbolic buried as otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/42 "2011-03-28T10:21:15Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Morgoth would undoubtedly have been far more successful overall if he hadn’t wasted so much of his power to merely possess a couple Silmarils. Also trusting Ungoliant was a pretty stupid idea, not to mention consistently underestimating the Noldor. Sure, he trampled them nearly into oblivion eventually, but often at an enormous cost of spent power and energy of his own. He didn’t believe the Valar would ever come to the aid of Middle Earth, and that was the final blunder. He had spent to much of his own power at that point to remotely hold his own, as he had in the past, and his minions were simply outclassed. Embarrassing, really. Melkor/Morgoth was my first thought. Squandered most of his power in an extended hissy fit because he wasn’t in charge and lost in the end. > [@Princhester](#): > > Why, what were they going to do? Sell it? It was only a symbolic bauble, and symbolic baubles can be just as symbolic buried as otherwise. Look at it? Enjoy it? Burying it was a waste. They could have mounted the thing on a monument to Thorin if they wanted to honor him with it. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/43 "2011-03-28T11:04:00Z")
Maybe it’s a dwarf thing. They are rather into digging etc. If it’s their culture to bury jewels with revered leaders, who are we to judge? I mean I wouldn’t want to live underground either, but dwarves like to. They clearly have a different aesthetic. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/44 "2011-03-28T11:31:45Z")
The Master of Lalketown showed himself to be utterly useless when Smaug came, and so proud that he starved to death in the wilderness rather than going home and facing the consequences of his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/45 "2011-03-28T11:33:09Z")
Dwarves like digging. Burying it just means they get to dig it up again later. Hell, Dwarves probably bury the key to the mine cart at the end of the day just for the enjoyment of digging it up again the next morning. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/46 "2011-03-28T11:41:13Z")
In terms of long-term collective decision-making ability, I don’t think you can top the long-term impact of the incompetence of the sons of Feanor. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/47 "2011-03-28T12:26:42Z")
Sorry, I know I’m not the Tolkien expert the rest of you are, but I still have to nominate good ol’ Bilbo himself. Everything in the OP isn’t Thorin’s responsibility, it’s Biblo’s. Bilbo \*asks \*them at his “party” what their plan is, and Thorin says it’s him (Bilbo). And Bilbo knows he’s entirely unsuited and has no plan, and yet he goes along anyhow. It’s as if you contracted with a highly recommended tax attorney who doesn’t know arithmetic, and he didn’t tell you that. It’s not your fault you end up with IRS agents at your front door! All of Bilbo’s successes were either blind luck, being bailed out by Gandalf, or the influence of The Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/48 "2011-03-28T12:45:58Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Why, what were they going to do? Sell it? It was only a symbolic bauble, and symbolic baubles can be just as symbolic buried as otherwise. One word: collateral. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/49 "2011-03-28T13:18:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I need to clarify this point as it bugs me. Meriadoc was actually very competent. He also was not the equivalent of a teen. He was 36 I believe when he made the plans to spy on Frodo and prevent him from slipping away. When he made the plans for having Frodo try to quietly move to Buckland first. He was ready with Ponies and the Ferry. As we know, 33 is pretty much the equivalent of 21. > > Throughout the book he used his head. At Rivendell he studied the maps. He listened and he learned more but after Frodo he was a most outstanding Hobbit and of course showed bravery against the Witch King that very few could have matched. > > It was to Frodo’s misfortune that Merry was not in the Prancing Pony when Pippin, the great fool of a Took, started to put them in jeopardy and Frodo finished the act on a grand note. Merry might have cut that off. > > Now Pippin was only 28 of course. He was basically a teen. He mostly caused problems but did slowly grow during the war. Remember where the two hobbits ended up, as well. Meridoc, the thinking one, ended up the Master of Buckland and, essentially, a political leader. Pippin, meanwhile is the action sort. He ends up becoming essentially war leader of the hobbits. Both are well-suited, as personalities, to the tasks in which the end up. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/50 "2011-03-28T13:48:37Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Remember where the two hobbits ended up, as well. Meridoc, the thinking one, ended up the Master of Buckland and, essentially, a political leader. Pippin, meanwhile is the action sort. He ends up becoming essentially war leader of the hobbits. Both are well-suited, as personalities, to the tasks in which the end up. Hell, Merry and Pipin were my two favorite characters in the whole trilogy. Even when they are first introduced, they come of as cooler than all the other Hobbit characters. And their part of the adventure is IMO the most interesting one, making The Two Towers the most gripping of the three books. Shame the movie didnt rise up to the level, by very very far. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/51 "2011-03-28T14:08:08Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > But I’ve often remarked that if the party in the Hobbit had simply hanged Bombur at the start they would have fared better. No rope would be equal to the job. Bombur did have his uses. If the dwarves had been forced to flee the wargs on foot, they would have only had to outrun him. They could also have eaten him themselves in an emergency. Don’t think of him as a member of the quest for Erebor, but as a travelling larder. > [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > Let’s throw in another candidate: Grima Wormtongue. Except that he did a sterling job of preventing Rohan from mustering effectively to meet Saruman’s forces. Thorin didn’t have much of a plan, but he was just continuing the the family tradition of desperate ventures. Thror was killed after sauntering into Moria alone, and Thrain was captured while wandering the wilderness, trying to get to Erebor. However, for each of them, failure was always an option. They were motivated by a sense of honour and revenge, not prudence. Thorin would have preferred death to poverty, and had little expectation of success. Remember, the original plan was not to kill Smaug, but to recover some of the treasure. The dwarves had no realistic way of handling a dragon, and knew it. Hama was pretty incompetant as a doorward. Not only did he fail to disarm a potentially hostile wizard, for an encore he armed a convicted criminal. Radagast may have been competant as a wizard, but as an Istari, meant to rally opposition to Sauron, he was pretty much a waste of space. Theoden was a huge liability to his people until Gandalf healed him. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/52 "2011-03-28T14:20:13Z")
I vote for the witch-king of Angmar. He and 5 other cannot defeat a single non-magical ranger, and some useless hobbits. Is totally screwed up by some guy casting a water spell miles away. In the end, overwhelmed by a tiny hobbit and a girl. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/53 "2011-03-28T14:24:14Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > In the end, overwhelmed by a tiny hobbit and a girl. A pretty badass girl, and a hobbit armed with a weapon specifically forged to hurt the Witch-King. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/54 "2011-03-28T14:26:25Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Perhaps not incompetent, but Celeborn is always referred to as “the wisest of the Galadrim”. I always thought that this spoke poorly of the intellect of the Galadrim, as Celeborn seems to be distinctly lacking in the smarts department. You know, that’s a good point. As I recall, Celeborn has about ten lines in LOTR, at least half of which are immediately contradicted or corrected by Galadriel. He pretty much comes across as a blowhard who’s too stupid to even understand that his wife is actually running everything. [Maybe this is just Tolkien giving us Gimli’s viewpoint, who’s seeing Celeborn through a bit of jealous tinge?] ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/55 "2011-03-28T14:32:16Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Remember where the two hobbits ended up, as well. Meridoc, the thinking one, ended up the Master of Buckland and, essentially, a political leader. Pippin, meanwhile is the action sort. He ends up becoming essentially war leader of the hobbits. Both are well-suited, as personalities, to the tasks in which the end up. Actually Pippin was the next Thain and the most important Hobbit in the Shire politically as was his father before him. Captain Meriadoc the Magnificent was by far the great War Hero and tactical leader. Both along with future Mayor Samwise earned great respect from the Hobbits for their actions in the Scouring of the Shire. But Thane was generally greater in rank then even the Master of Buckland. The Thain is the representative of the King in the Shire in his absence. Then Aragorn further made Thain Peregrin (Pippin) Took a Counsellor of the North-kingdom. The Master of Buckland is effectively a lesser noble\* then the Thain. He is in charge of Buckland. The position was less important before Merry though as Aragorn made the Master of Buckland a Counsellor of the North-kingdom. The Marish tended to look to the Master as the local authority also but nothing formal. Finally the one elected position, the Mayor of Michel Delving was made a Counsellor of the North-kingdom by Aragorn when Samwise was Mayor. Looking it up, these changes were made in the year 13 FA. - I know Noble is not quite right but as the position was inherited, it seems to be the best word to use. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/56 "2011-03-28T14:33:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Not plausible. The apple is the second poisoning. She knows the Queen (who is also a witch) wants her dead and that her father will do nothing to protect her; that is why she is hiding in the wilderness. The Queen, in disguise, has already given her a poisoned comb which would have been the death of her if not for the Dwarves. Whether Snow White recognizes the profferer of the apple as the profferer of the comb seems irrelevant; you’d think she’d have learned not to trust strangers. You’re missing the point of the story: If Snow White had distrusted strangers and looked for poison in every interaction, she would not have been Snow White; she’d have been an evil queen. It was because Snow White was welcoming and open to others that she was taken in by the dwarves and cared for (even when seemingly dead) and that a Prince was able to love her. In contrast the suspicious Queen can’t even get her minions to carry out a simple task without them disobeying orders as soon as they can get away with it. Snow White’s innocence and ability to trust others is what let her live long enough to get poisoned, and what let her recover from it. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/57 "2011-03-28T14:39:05Z")
I vote for Big Daddy G himself…that’s right…Gandalf. Non-dpsing mages are a waste of a raid slot. Dude apparently flunked out of mage school right after learning “Affect Normal Fires”. Couldn’t be arsed to learn anything useful…like “Magic Missile”, “Fireball”, “Lightning Bolt”, “Stinking Cloud”, or “Power Word: Kill”. Just insists on doing frakkin melee combat with a big ass sword. In cloth armor. :rolleyes: Yeah-yeah. Ancient angel. Wise, blah blah. /guildremove Gandalf ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/58 "2011-03-28T14:40:53Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You can get into an unresolvable argument about both Saruman and Denethor because it comes down to unknowable questions about the extent of personal responsibility in the face of the power of Sauron and the Palantir. ? Doesn’t apply to Saruman. He wasn’t fooled into desiring the ring, but came up with the idea all by himself. Also, contrarily to Denethor, he was as powerful as Gandalf and even more knowledgeable than him. He walked into the trap with his eyes wide open. Denethor is only guilty of having used every tool he had at his disposal in a desperate situation (and of too much pride. Although it could be argued that the Stewards did the job of the absentee kings for so long that their lineage was probably more deserving than the kings’) Also, stop posting petty, unfounded, accusations about Radagast, one of my prefered characters in the books. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/59 "2011-03-28T14:45:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I vote for Big Daddy G himself…that’s right…Gandalf. > > Non-dpsing mages are a waste of a raid slot. Dude apparently flunked out of mage school right after learning “Affect Normal Fires”. Couldn’t be arsed to learn anything useful…like “Magic Missile”, “Fireball”, “Lightning Bolt”, “Stinking Cloud”, or “Power Word: Kill”. Just insists on doing frakkin melee combat with a big ass sword. In cloth armor. :rolleyes: > > Yeah-yeah. Ancient angel. Wise, blah blah. > > /guildremove Gandalf Just you wait, the next time you try the Balrog will slaughter the whole raid. Can’t beat a Balrog without a wizard with a sword build. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/60 "2011-03-28T14:52:37Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I vote for Big Daddy G himself…that’s right…Gandalf. > > Non-dpsing mages are a waste of a raid slot. Dude apparently flunked out of mage school right after learning “Affect Normal Fires”. Couldn’t be arsed to learn anything useful…like “Magic Missile”, “Fireball”, “Lightning Bolt”, “Stinking Cloud”, or “Power Word: Kill”. Just insists on doing frakkin melee combat with a big ass sword. In cloth armor. :rolleyes: > > Yeah-yeah. Ancient angel. Wise, blah blah. > > /guildremove Gandalf Actually you are misinformed. He showed use of Lightning against the Nazgul on Weathertop. He of course had Wizard Lock though the Balrog just destroyed the door instead. He helped to lend an aspect of Watery Horses to the Flood that washed the 9 away outside of Rivendell. He blasted the Goblins with some sort of spell right after they took Dwarves. Also a bit more powerful then Affect normal fires was what he did in the Goblin Cave. [QUOTE=The Hobbit] there was a terrible flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead. … Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off poof! into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins. [/QUOTE] But then as Gandalf the White, returned from death by Eru (God) himself, he used some sort of Holy Light spell: [QUOTE=RotK] But now the dark swooping shadows were aware of the newcomer. One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away; and with that the four others wavered, and then rising in swift spirals they passed away eastward vanishing into the lowering cloud above; and down on the Pelennor it seemed for a while less dark. [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=4)