# Who is the most incompetent character in Tolkien's legendarium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161 "2011-03-27T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/61 "2011-03-28T14:57:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Look at it? Enjoy it? Burying it was a waste. They could have mounted the thing on a monument to Thorin if they wanted to honor him with it. It has been a few years, but I seem to recall the postscript saying the Arkenstone would glow whenever enemies threatened the Lonely Mountain, which implies to me that actually was in something like a monument. I visualize something like Lenin’s Tomb. Regarding Celeborn, he had of course been p-whipped for _millennia_. Can you imagine “Are you planning to wear \*that \*cloak with \*those \*boots” for \*\*thousands \*\*of years? Remember that his wife clearly had a will harder than forged steel–she led an army across the _polar ice cap_, a deed to make Lord Brandoch Daha look for the easier way around. For some reason, Galadriel liked it to appear in public as if Celeborn worn the pants around the house, but by the point of the story, Celeborn probably couldn’t say boo to a goose without asking his wife first. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/62 "2011-03-28T15:09:16Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > It has been a few years, but I seem to recall the postscript saying the Arkenstone would glow whenever enemies threatened the Lonely Mountain, which implies to me that actually was in something like a monument. No, it was the sword Orcrist that glowed, in the same fashion as Sting and Glamdring. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/63 "2011-03-28T15:09:32Z")
Galadriel was pretty much the classic idea of the Elven Queen and was quite Queenly. Celeborn came off much more like the Lord married to the ruling Queen. She was powerful and hardy and through her own magics and her ring’s magic had great control over Lothlórien. Then for good measure, while her husband led the army to defeat Dol Guldor, Galadriel threw down the walls of the fortress. By the War of the Ring she was the most powerful Elf left in Middle-Earth, I would guess only Glorfindel could rival her. Celeborn in most accounts was not an Elf of the Light. He was of Beleriand in most accounts. What I do not understand are the claims he was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. He did not show it and both Elrond and Cirdan (probably the eldest Elf left in Middle-Earth) both appeared wiser. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/64 "2011-03-28T15:23:42Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Celeborn in most accounts was not an Elf of the Light. He was of Beleriand in most accounts. What I do not understand are the claims he was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. He did not show it and both Elrond and Cirdan (probably the eldest Elf left in Middle-Earth) both appeared wiser. Yes, Celeborn was Sindarin, IIRC. As were Thranduil and Legolas. Most of the sylvan elf rulers were Sindarin. His closeness to Thingol, Melian and Galadriel would have enhanced his reputation and his capacity (Thingol and Melian’s rule was one reason the Sindarin were later considered Calaquendi). But yeah, he doesn’t come off in the narrative quite up to his stated reputation. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/65 "2011-03-28T15:34:23Z")
How about Cirdan. He’s the Jeff Spicoli of Middle Earth. When world shattering events are ravaging the land, he’s content to grow a beard, lounge on the beach, waxing and refinishing his boats, giving reef cruises for elf retirees. He possessed one of the great rings of power, declaring “Woah, Gandalf man, this is too heavy, can you hang on to this?” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/66 "2011-03-28T15:34:33Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > Regarding Celeborn, he had of course been p-whipped for _millennia_. Can you imagine “Are you planning to wear \*that \*cloak with \*those \*boots” for \*\*thousands \*\*of years? Remember that his wife clearly had a will harder than forged steel–she led an army across the _polar ice cap_, a deed to make Lord Brandoch Daha look for the easier way around. For some reason, Galadriel liked it to appear in public as if Celeborn worn the pants around the house, but by the point of the story, Celeborn probably couldn’t say boo to a goose without asking his wife first. But as any p-whipped Elf would say “Yes, but I’ve been tapping that for several thousand years.” ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/67 "2011-03-28T16:08:08Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > How about Cirdan. I don’t think Cirdan qualifies. He styles himself “Cirdan the shipwright”, and that and beard-growing are what he sticks to. Seems a bit unfair to criticise him for not being a great hero, that’s not his gig. On the other hand, “Celeborn the wise” deserves his bad press. His great contribution is provide boats for the fellowship to travel in. I can see him racking his brains for days over that one, with Galadriel dropping hints at every opportunity (pointing out pictures of boats, taking him on boating trips, and trooping past him with a giant model boat). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/68 "2011-03-28T16:32:27Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > How about Radagast? I don’t know if was incompetent, since I don’t know what he was supposed to be competent _at_. He bumblingly lured Gandalf into Saruman’s clutches, and was MIA for the entire War of the Ring. His only saving grace was that he IM’d Gwaihir, who eventually rescued Gandalf from Orthanc, through no plan of Radaghast’s. I think you’re being unfair to Radagast, at least on the second part. He could have been playing quite an important part in the quest that the Red Book’s authors (Bilbo, Frodo, Samwise, & the scribes of Gondor) either never heard of or were uninterested in (just as Galadriel, for instance, did quite a bit to fight against Sauron that we know very little about). It’s like the difference between Frodo & Aragorn’s roles. The former is much more important to the _Quest_ than the latter, but if not for the latter’s actions, the victory over Sauron would have been Pyrrhic indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/69 "2011-03-28T16:36:07Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Yeah, some of the responsibility must fall on the wizard who thought Butterbur-post was a smart way to deliver an important message. I’ll defend Gandalf here. Remember, this is not just before email and voicemail and telephones; it’s before post offices. I can easily imagine that, short-sighted & distractable though he was, Barliam was simply the only choice Gandalf had for delivering the message. ETA: As for Sauron: He, too, is in a sense the victim of bad press. I haven’t done the numbers (though perhaps **Qadgop** can help us) but I have the feeling that he was in power for much longer aggregate period in the Second & Third Ages than he was out of it, and that the total amount of territory and number of persons under his sway was larger than the territory and population of the Free Peoples. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/70 "2011-03-28T16:58:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > But I’ve often remarked that if the party in the Hobbit had simply hanged Bombur at the start they would have fared better. Had they done that, then hiring a Burglar would have brought them back up to thirteen. They would have needed an extra hobbit. How might the story have gone differently if Otho Sackville-Baggins had been in the party along with Bilbo and Thorin & Co.? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/71 "2011-03-28T17:15:42Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > But as any p-whipped Elf would say “Yes, but I’ve been tapping that for several thousand years.” Yeah, but did you see her in green mode in the movie? She probably looks like that when doing the nasty… ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/72 "2011-03-28T18:01:17Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Yeah, but did you see her in green mode in the movie? She probably looks like that when doing the nasty… I’m going to defend Thorin & Co. for not setting out with proper weapons. They were poor and couldn’t afford any. It was not a time of war, and weapons are rare and expensive. It’s not like there was a Swords R Us on every street corner. Even Frodo & Co. set out unarmed. Throughout the entire first part of the story, every weapon used was a found weapon. Mass manufacture didn’t happen until much later. Therefore, my answer to this thread is “Everyone except Strider.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/73 "2011-03-28T18:13:14Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m going to defend Thorin & Co. for not setting out with proper weapons. They were poor and couldn’t afford any. It was not a time of war, and weapons are rare and expensive. It’s not like there was a Swords R Us on every street corner. Even Frodo & Co. set out unarmed. Throughout the entire first part of the story, every weapon used was a found weapon. Mass manufacture didn’t happen until much later. > > Therefore, my answer to this thread is “Everyone except Strider.” Actually Thorin was not poor. They carried instruments from apparently the Blue Mts. to Hobbiton at least of value and had earned a fair many over the years. They should have had axes, helms and chain mail at least. > [@The Hobbit](#): > > Thorin’s harp wrapped in a green cloth. It was a beautiful gold-en harp, and > when Thorin struck it the music began all at once, so sudden and sweet that > Bilbo forgot everything else, > … > Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck > [@LotR Appendixes](#): > > So Thorin Oakenshield became the Heir of Durin, but an heir without hope. When Thráin was lost he was ninety-five, a great dwarf of proud bearing; but he seemed content to remain in Eriador. There he laboured long, and trafficked, and gained such wealth as he could; and his people were increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him. Now they had fair halls in the mountains, and store of goods, and their days did not seem so hard, though in their songs they spoke ever of the Lonely Mountain far away. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/74 "2011-03-28T18:24:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m going to defend Thorin & Co. for not setting out with proper weapons. They were poor and couldn’t afford any. It was not a time of war, and weapons are rare and expensive. It’s not like there was a Swords R Us on every street corner. Even Frodo & Co. set out unarmed. Throughout the entire first part of the story, every weapon used was a found weapon. Mass manufacture didn’t happen until much later. > > Therefore, my answer to this thread is “Everyone except Strider.” **What Exit?** has already commented on the idea that Thorin & Company were poor, but I will add that comparing the four young hobbits to Thorin’s group seems, well, silly. For one thing they were HOBBITS: not merely peaceful by inclination, but quite insular and consequently naive. (Few persons in the Shire appreciated that their peaceful little country seemed that way only because of the vigilance of the Rangers.) Add to that the fact that they didn’t intend to go far in the first place – only to Bree, which, while outside the Shire proper, shared in its prosperity, illusory sense of safety, and divorcement from the concerns of the larger world). And, of course, they all had weapons after the incident with the Barrow Wights. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/75 "2011-03-28T19:12:01Z")
I think poor is relative here. The Lonely Mountain was fabulously rich, and Thorin had been something like the heir to nobility only to become a refugee. Didn’t Gandalf taunt him at one point about maybe having to go back to mining coal? It would be a little as if the firstborn son of a duke had to flee the country and ended up being a moderately prosperous merchant. Maybe he and his weren’t going to starve but they had taken a huge, huge step down. That’s the sort of thing that even a human much less a dwarf is going to nurse a grudge over. ETA: and now that I think of it, Thorin’s character makes a lot more sense if you think of him as a resentful ruined noble. Prideful to the point of stupidity, obsessed with getting “the family estate” back and maybe not having all that much personal talent. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/76 "2011-03-28T19:20:02Z")
Quoth **Skald** : > [@](#): > > I’ll defend Gandalf here. Remember, this is not just before email and voicemail and telephones; it’s before post offices. Admittedly we’re not told about Bree, but the Shire had post offices. They mostly just idled around and gossiped except when there was a big event like Bilbo’s party, but they were there. Quoth **BrotherCadfael** : > [@](#): > > Yeah, but did you see her in green mode in the movie? She probably looks like that when doing the nasty… Elves do not “do the nasty”. Nothing elves ever do is nasty. Like everything else they do, Elvish lovemaking is sublime. Besides, it’s only due to twisted Puritan repression that we 21st-century Western humans think of sex as “nasty” to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/77 "2011-03-28T19:21:34Z")
Of course Thorin was poor! He spent all of his money on magic harps and bling. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/78 "2011-03-28T19:24:56Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I think poor is relative here. The Lonely Mountain was fabulously rich, and Thorin had been something like the heir to nobility only to become a refugee. Didn’t Gandalf taunt him at one point about maybe having to go back to mining coal? It would be a little as if the firstborn son of a duke had to flee the country and ended up being a moderately prosperous merchant. Maybe he and his weren’t going to starve but they had taken a huge, huge step down. That’s the sort of thing that even a human much less a dwarf is going to nurse a grudge over. > > ETA: and now that I think of it, Thorin’s character makes a lot more sense if you think of him as a resentful ruined noble. Prideful to the point of stupidity, obsessed with getting “the family estate” back and maybe not having all that much personal talent. He was not wealthy by the old standards but he was more then well off enough to equip his party with weapons. Indeed the weapons should have been forged by them already. Thorin had done well in the battle outside of Moria (Battle of Azanulbizar) where he earned his nickname Oakenshield. He was no stranger to fighting but a proven vet. Gandalf convinced him to try stealth and the trump card of the map and key helped to sway Thorin to the idea. But then Gandalf insisted that if Thorin did not bring Bilbo, his quest would fail. It was like Gandalf had some inside information perhaps. But all that said, Thorin should have had weapons and armor and maybe several bows. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/79 "2011-03-28T19:35:55Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Celeborn in most accounts was not an Elf of the Light. He was of Beleriand in most accounts. What I do not understand are the claims he was the wisest Elf in Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. He did not show it and both Elrond and Cirdan (probably the eldest Elf left in Middle-Earth) both appeared wiser. It was a typo. He was actually the _widest_ Elf in Middle-Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/80 "2011-03-28T19:47:44Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Thorin should have had weapons and armor and maybe several bows. Maybe he did and the dwarves lost all their equipment just like they repeatedly did on the journey. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=5)