# Who is the most incompetent character in Tolkien's legendarium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161 "2011-03-27T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/81 "2011-03-28T19:56:04Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Perhaps not incompetent, but Celeborn is always referred to as “the wisest of the Galadrim”. I always thought that this spoke poorly of the intellect of the Galadrim, as Celeborn seems to be distinctly lacking in the smarts department. Heh. I came in to say this. The movie does him no favors, either. His line “Eight there are here, yet… nine there were,” is delivered in the movie in such a way as to make it really look like he’s (very slowly) counting up to see if he can actually get to nine without using his fingers. mr. hunter and I often quote that line when we would like to express that we’ve had a “duh” moment. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/82 "2011-03-28T19:59:30Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Gandalf convinced him to try stealth and the trump card of the map and key helped to sway Thorin to the idea. But then Gandalf insisted that if Thorin did not bring Bilbo, his quest would fail. It was like Gandalf had some inside information perhaps. But all that said, Thorin should have had weapons and armor and maybe several bows. \> ASK THORIN ABOUT THE ARMOR I don’t know how to do that. Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/83 "2011-03-28T22:35:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > \> ASK THORIN ABOUT THE ARMOR > > I don’t know how to do that. > > Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold. That brings back memories of my youth! ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/84 "2011-03-28T22:56:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll defend Gandalf here. Remember, this is not just before email and voicemail and telephones; it’s before post offices. I can easily imagine that, short-sighted & distractable though he was, Barliam was simply the only choice Gandalf had for delivering the message. Fair enough, fair enough, about the difficulties of communication… but are you really saying that Gandalf looked over the population of Bree and Butterbur was the best option?! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/85 "2011-03-28T22:59:13Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Fair enough, fair enough, about the difficulties of communication… but are you really saying that Gandalf looked over the population of Bree and Butterbur was the best option?! 😃 Sadly it is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/86 "2011-03-28T23:13:13Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Yeah, some of the responsibility must fall on the wizard who thought Butterbur-post was a smart way to deliver an important message. > > I think an OP nod has to go to Sauron. Putting that much of ones power into an obvious-inaccessible-focus rather smacks of min-maxing with insufficient grasp of the consequences. 🙂 I don’t think making it OIF was the problem: Sauron was recovering quite nicely without it. I’d suggest that making it Independent was the problem, because when it got destroyed, Sauron completely lost all those points. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/87 "2011-03-28T23:31:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t think making it OIF was the problem: Sauron was recovering quite nicely without it. I’d suggest that making it Independent was the problem, because when it got destroyed, Sauron completely lost all those points. 😕 What does OIF mean? What does _Independent_ mean in this context? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/88 "2011-03-28T23:32:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > 😕 > > What does OIF mean? What does _Independent_ mean in this context? It is some sort of gaming term that even an old gamer like me does not understand. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/89 "2011-03-28T23:50:37Z")
I would think that means _Independent_ in that it doesn’t just think “Get back to Sauron as quick as possible”, but rather “Hey, it’s fun to fuck with these creatures and make them ALL want me!” even when this acts counter to the first idea. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/90 "2011-03-29T00:24:51Z")
It’s Hero System jargon, guys. Let me see if I remember it correctly. OIF = Obvious Inaccessible Focus = A visible (Obvious) object that is the source of some/all of your powers (Focus), which cannot easily be removed from you (Inaccessible). Iron Man’s armor would be an OIF–it’s highly visible, the source of his powers, and very difficult to take of off him against his will. The Shade’s cane would be an OAF (Obvious Accessible Focus)–it gets taken away pretty often without disabling him first. Independent is another limitation. It does not, as I recall, refer to the ability of the item to act on its own, but to the fact that it functions independently from its creator/owner. That is, anyone can use it. The limitation is generally applied to unique and irreplaceable foci. (A non-unique focus that any one could use would be a Universal focus.) ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/91 "2011-03-29T01:00:02Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > It was a typo. He was actually the _widest_ Elf in Middle-Earth. Maybe not the widest, but certainly the thickest… ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/92 "2011-03-29T01:02:18Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > Let’s throw in another candidate: Grima Wormtongue. Among other accomplishments, believes he can take on Gandalf in a contest of who can be more pursuasive with Theoden. I think Theoden gets an honorable mention for trusting someone named _Grima Wormtongue_. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/93 "2011-03-29T01:17:25Z")
Grima was his real name and Wormtongue was probably some nickname given to him by some of his detractors. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/94 "2011-03-29T01:25:46Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Grima was his real name and Wormtongue was probably some nickname given to him by some of his detractors. Wormtoungue is what almost everyone but Theoden called him. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/95 "2011-03-29T02:58:12Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > It’s Hero System jargon, guys. Let me see if I remember it correctly. > > OIF… Iron Man’s armor would be an OIF–it’s highly visible, the source of his powers, and very difficult to take of off him against his will. Arguably Independent – someone else could take the armour and use it, but probably OIF because Stark could make another copy. > [@](#): > > Independent is another limitation… That is, anyone can use it. The limitation is generally applied to unique and irreplaceable foci. Seeing as how Sauron couldn’t remake The One Ring it could arguably be Independent rather than OIF, but it didn’t seem that someone else using it would derive the full benefits; hence OIF in my original post. Sorry **Skald** , was just making a silly joke in gaming terms about Sauron trying to “play” the system and ending up investing way too many points in an object that could be lost. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/96 "2011-03-29T03:04:07Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Independent is another limitation. It does not, as I recall, refer to the ability of the item to act on its own, but to the fact that it functions independently from its creator/owner. That is, anyone can use it. The limitation is generally applied to unique and irreplaceable foci. (A non-unique focus that any one could use would be a Universal focus.) _Independent_ also means that if the focus is destroyed, the character points you’ve spent on the focus item are permanently lost. A normal Focus can typically be rebuilt or replaced by the character if destroyed - for example, Tony Stark can build a new Iron Man suit if he has to. If an Independent focus is destroyed, it’s gone forever. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/97 "2011-03-29T05:48:32Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Gandalf convinced him to try stealth and the trump card of the map and key helped to sway Thorin to the idea. But then Gandalf insisted that if Thorin did not bring Bilbo, his quest would fail. It was like Gandalf had some inside information perhaps. But all that said, Thorin should have had weapons and armor and maybe several bows. If they had weapons before Smaug was killed (spoiler!) they likely would have used them in a way that got them all killed. The Hobbit had problems that were solved by opportunity meeting wit. Even when they were barricaded in the Lonely Mountain they were not formidable at all. They were fourteen against an army in a siege. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/98 "2011-03-29T07:28:02Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Seeing as how Sauron couldn’t remake The One Ring it could arguably be Independent rather than OIF, but it didn’t seem that someone else using it would derive the full benefits; hence OIF in my original post. It’s my understanding that they would, but it would take a lot of time to fully master the Ring. And that once they did so, Sauron would be reduced to impotence just as he was by destroying it. Basically, the Ring contained most of the essence of what made Sauron what he was. Which is also why you can’t master it without being corrupted even if you are a Gandalf or Galadriel; the more you master it, the more by definition you essentially become Sauron Mark II. You are making Sauron’s essence part of you. > [@Apollyon](#): > > I think an OP nod has to go to Sauron. Putting that much of ones power into an obvious-inaccessible-focus rather smacks of min-maxing with insufficient grasp of the consequences. 🙂 Keep in mind that it took what amounted to a (possibly literal) Act of God for the Ring to be destroyed. Without Gollum just happening to attack Frodo at just the right moment and then falling in the lava, Sauron would have gotten his Ring back and _won_. Yes, the Ring could be lost temporarily, but his belief that it was effectively indestructible was justified. It was a risk (the biggest risk was that someone of sufficient strength would find it and master it, not that it would be destroyed); but it was as far s we know the only way he had to power himself up that way. In fact, that made him smarter than Morgoth, who invested his power in the world and his servants and unlike Sauron ended up personally much weaker, not stronger. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/99 "2011-03-29T08:50:16Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Besides, despite all the talk of dividing the proceeds into thirteen equal parts, all Thorin really wanted was the Arkenstone. So, naturally, they buried it with him. The single most valuable thing in Smaug’s entire hoard, and they bury it in the dirt with a dead body that has neither use for it nor the ability to enjoy it. Now _that_’s stupid! [minor nitpick]Thorin was entombed, not en-graved. I had thought the Arkenstone had been set on top of the tomb, with the sword, but checking shows it was put in the tomb with him. So still out of sight, but at least not in the dirt. [/minor nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/100 "2011-03-29T12:37:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A pretty badass girl, and a hobbit armed with a weapon specifically forged to hurt the Witch-King. about the sword, was the sword made to hurt the Witch-king? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=6)