# Who is the most incompetent character in Tolkien's legendarium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161 "2011-03-27T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/101 "2011-03-29T12:44:37Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > about the sword, was the sword made to hurt the Witch-king? Not specifically the Witch-King, but it was created to fight his forces way back in Angmar, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Sakuma\_Drops](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sakuma\_Drops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sakuma_Drops)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/102 "2011-03-29T12:47:27Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > about the sword, was the sword made to hurt the Witch-king? Yes. During the narrative of _Fellowship of the Ring_, Merry had taken a sword from the Barrow-Downs that was actually a knife that had been forged (and enchanted) by the the Dunedain to be especially harmful to the Witch-King (as well as the other forces that threatened Arnor), although he didn’t know this at the time. The way that the Witch-King fight went in the book is that Merry effectively crippled the Witch-King with the enchanted blade, allowing Eowyn to land the killing blow. The enchanted nature of Merry’s blade was not mentioned in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/103 "2011-03-29T12:48:22Z")
> [@willthekittensurvive](#): > > about the sword, was the sword made to hurt the Witch-king? Yes; it was recovered from the Barrow, and forged specifically against him centuries ago. > [@](#): > > “So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” ---
**Author:** ![willthekittensurvive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@willthekittensurvive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/willthekittensurvive)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/104 "2011-03-29T13:04:52Z")
thanks to Der Tris,Sakuma Drops and Stormcrow Thats why I always carry extra “Identify Item” scrolls ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/105 "2011-03-29T16:14:56Z")
The obvious choice for most incompetent has to be the Council of Elrond. “So, we’re agreed then. The Ring must be destroyed, and Frodo shall bear it to Mount Doom.” “Excellent. Gandalf has an in with Gwaihir the Eagle. He and his fellows can carry Frodo there, and we’ll be done with this unpleasantness in a matter of a couple of days.” “Oh, no, no. Can’t have Eagles crapping all over the Last Homely House. Frodo should walk to Mount Doom.” “Walk?” “Yes, walk. Good exercise, and much more sporting. We’ll send some friends along, and they can all sing songs along the way.” “But they’ll have to cross through Moria! They could get killed in there.” “That’s a little bit racist, you know. Besides, I’ve heard the Dwarves have been redeveloping Moria.” “They’ll have to find their way into Mordor!” “Hobbits are natural burglars. Gandalf said so.” “But the Eagles could --” “NO EAGLES! Start walking!” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/106 "2011-03-29T16:27:51Z")
Trust me, you _really_ don’t want an Artifact of Evil that also happens to be a small shiny object anywhere near giant birds. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/107 "2011-03-29T16:37:45Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > It’s Hero System jargon, guys. Let me see if I remember it correctly. > > OIF = Obvious Inaccessible Focus = A visible (Obvious) object that is the source of some/all of your powers (Focus), which cannot easily be removed from you (Inaccessible). > > Iron Man’s armor would be an OIF–it’s highly visible, the source of his powers, and very difficult to take of off him against his will. Thor would disagree about that last part. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/108 "2011-03-29T16:42:06Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wormtoungue is what almost everyone but Theoden called him. > [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Grima was his real name and Wormtongue was probably some nickname given to him by some of his detractors. I’m going to do some redaction criticism here: the epithet _Wormtongue_ was the invention of Gondorian scribes. Theoden, Stormcrow, et al all referred to and addressed him as simply Grima. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/109 "2011-03-29T16:43:21Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > “NO EAGLES! Start walking!” [One does not simply WALK into Mordor…](http://goofygifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/funny-gifs-one-does-not-simply-walk-into-mordor.gif) ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/110 "2011-03-29T17:06:23Z")
Der Trihs - That particular quote about the passing of the witch-king always gives me chills. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/111 "2011-03-29T17:20:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [One does not simply WALK into Mordor…](http://goofygifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/funny-gifs-one-does-not-simply-walk-into-mordor.gif) Chuck Norris simply walks into Mordor. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/112 "2011-03-29T18:09:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The obvious choice for most incompetent has to be the Council of Elrond. > > “So, we’re agreed then. The Ring must be destroyed, and Frodo shall bear it to Mount Doom.” > > “Excellent. Gandalf has an in with Gwaihir the Eagle. He and his fellows can carry Frodo there, and we’ll be done with this unpleasantness in a matter of a couple of days.” > > “Oh, no, no. Can’t have Eagles crapping all over the Last Homely House. Frodo should walk to Mount Doom.” > > “Walk?” > > “Yes, walk. Good exercise, and much more sporting. We’ll send some friends along, and they can all sing songs along the way.” > > “But they’ll have to cross through Moria! They could get killed in there.” > > “That’s a little bit racist, you know. Besides, I’ve heard the Dwarves have been redeveloping Moria.” > > “They’ll have to find their way into Mordor!” > > “Hobbits are natural burglars. Gandalf said so.” > > “But the Eagles could --” > > “NO EAGLES! Start walking!” No, just no. Sauron was well aware of the Eagles being associated with Manwë and would be especially on the look out at all times for spying eagles. Also the Eagles did not have the ability to fly the Hobbits all the way to Mount Doom, they still would have had to get very near to Mordor to attempt it. It was not the original plan to go through Moria, put rather over Moria. That did not work out well. You know why they could not go around Isengard down the Greenway already. Gandalf planned to lead the Hobbits in Mordor. This is the Wizard that snuck in and out of Dol Guldor while Sauron was in residence. He was pretty good at these things. Now Elrond wanted to send Glorfindel with them. The Elf that the Witch-King was gravely afraid of and had previously killed a Balrog but I believe Gandalf feared that taking Glorfindel with them would have been like lighting a beacon that said, “We have the Ring and we’re coming to get you.” Stealth and a desperate gamble was what Gandalf tried in the end. While I think they should have taken horses at least as far as the pass, stealth is what gave them some hope as opposed to no hope. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/113 "2011-03-29T18:12:38Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Now Elrond wanted to send Glorfindel with them. The Elf that the Witch-King was gravely afraid of and had previously killed a Balrog but I believe Gandalf feared that taking Glorfindel with them would have been like lighting a beacon that said, “We have the Ring and we’re coming to get you.” Don’t get me started on the Glorfindel subject! They’ll leave him at home, but the rest of the Company is fine, because of course someone like Gandalf is totally inconspicuous. The real reason is that Gandalf didn’t want someone else giving orders and looking smart. Gandalf is a control freak. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/114 "2011-03-29T18:16:32Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wormtoungue is what almost everyone but Theoden called him. Theoden knew that your deputy is always going to be resented. I read something like that in The Caine Mutiny (the novel by Herman Wouk), when Captain Queeg says how the exec on a Navy ship can’t be expected to be making a lot of friends. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/115 "2011-03-29T18:29:34Z")
\*“So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” \* This has always said to me that Merry struck the killing blow. Eowyn’s frontal attack on the witch-king distracted him, allowing Merry to get close enough to do the deed. I can’t see any argument that can plausibly credit Eowyn with the kill. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/116 "2011-03-29T18:41:19Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Don’t get me started on the Glorfindel subject! They’ll leave him at home, but the rest of the Company is fine, because of course someone like Gandalf is totally inconspicuous. The real reason is that Gandalf didn’t want someone else giving orders and looking smart. Gandalf is a control freak. Well Gandalf the Grey was cloaked to the eyes of the enemy is my reading on what little we know of the Five Wizards. As I mentioned, he came and went in and out of Dol Guldor without Sauron knowing it. I suspect Gandalf the White was not so cloaked. I believe when Erü sent him back it was pretty much as a full powered Maia. Remember, he claimed no weapon of Aragorn’s, Gimli’s or Legolas’s could have hurt him and he wasn’t quite Gandalf anymore. I believe he was closer to Olorin of the West then Gandalf the Grey at that point. > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > \*“So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” \* > > This has always said to me that Merry struck the killing blow. Eowyn’s frontal attack on the witch-king distracted him, allowing Merry to get close enough to do the deed. I can’t see any argument that can plausibly credit Eowyn with the kill. I agree. Éowyn could not have killed the Witch-King. At most she could have dis-incorporated him if you will. It was Meriadoc’s blow with the enchanted blade that allowed Éowyn’s great blow to finish off the Witch-King. But anyone at that point should have been able to deliver the final blow, but prophesy made her the perfect person and of course provided a great distraction when she took off her helm to allow Meriadoc to get the drop on the Witch-King. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/117 "2011-03-29T18:47:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Of course, the problem in CE is really bad _management_, not bad engineering. I don’t have a problem with the problem being unsolvable from the pilot’s POV as the story opens. But the young girl was doomed by the lack of a pre-flight check In the safety industry, a term of art for these sorts of things is “administrative controls.” They have kind of a bad reputation because they can be ignored by fallible humans. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/118 "2011-03-29T18:49:15Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Maybe not the widest, but certainly the thickest… Hmmm, so is _that_ why Galadriel liked him so much?? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/119 "2011-03-29T19:06:39Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > \*“So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.” \* > > This has always said to me that Merry struck the killing blow. Eowyn’s frontal attack on the witch-king distracted him, allowing Merry to get close enough to do the deed. I can’t see any argument that can plausibly credit Eowyn with the kill. He was immune to any normal attack until the magic blade broke the spell that made him immune, which Merry did. Merry’s attack would not have been fatal on a living person due to where he struck. Eowyn then finished him off with a mortal blow. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/120 "2011-03-29T19:20:23Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > - > > This has always said to me that Merry struck the killing blow. Eowyn’s frontal attack on the witch-king distracted him, allowing Merry to get close enough to do the deed. I can’t see any argument that can plausibly credit Eowyn with the kill. Merry and Eowyn were clearly in the same raid group, so both gain experience for the kill. Sadly, Tolkien was sloppy and did not properly itemize the Witch-King’s loot table, so nothing but a few silver and a grey mail armor piece (vendor fodder) dropped. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=7)