# Who is the most incompetent character in Tolkien's legendarium? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 27, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161 "2011-03-27T17:07:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/121 "2011-03-29T19:26:52Z")
I think it took BOTH Merry & Eowyn to fell the witch-king. and neither were men. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/122 "2011-03-29T19:43:31Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Merry and Eowyn were clearly in the same raid group, so both gain experience for the kill. Sadly, Tolkien was sloppy and did not properly itemize the Witch-King’s loot table, so nothing but a few silver and a grey mail armor piece (vendor fodder) dropped. Luckily for Eowyn, Aragorn had Cure Black Breath off cooldown. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/123 "2011-03-29T19:53:20Z")
And as the nerdiness of this thread careened off the top of the scale, we stood in awe and watched. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/124 "2011-03-29T19:55:16Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Don’t get me started on the Glorfindel subject! They’ll leave him at home, but the rest of the Company is fine, because of course someone like Gandalf is totally inconspicuous. The real reason is that Gandalf didn’t want someone else giving orders and looking smart. Gandalf is a control freak. Er, no. There CAN’T be any ambiguity about whose in charge. That way lies disaster. My one big problem with the movie adaptation of FELLOWSHIP was Gandalf letting Frodo decide whether they would go through Moria or not. It’s just not done. And unlike some things that are just not done, there’s a damn good reason. Aslan would have had a long talking to with the wizard on the subject. Athena would simply have smacked him. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/125 "2011-03-29T20:03:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Er, no. > > There CAN’T be any ambiguity about whose in charge. That way lies disaster. My one big problem with the movie adaptation of FELLOWSHIP was Gandalf letting Frodo decide whether they would go through Moria or not. It’s just not done. And unlike some things that are just not done, there’s a damn good reason. > > Aslan would have had a long talking to with the wizard on the subject. Athena would simply have smacked him. Please remind me how it was done in the book. I’ve always assumed that Gandalf’s standing orders from on high was that he could advise, but not allowed to substitute his own judgement over those of the middle-earthlings. (“Free will” must be allowed to be exercised, I guess.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/126 "2011-03-29T20:03:44Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > I think it took BOTH Merry & Eowyn to fell the witch-king. and neither were men. Not quite true. Eowyn was a _Man_ – that is, a member of the Second-born Children of Eru, the Sickly Ones, the Usurpers, a _Homo sapiens sapiens_ who aged and died utterly in respect to the physical world and whose spiritual fate after death was unknown; but she was not a _man_ – i.e., a male member of that class. As for Merry – well, I think Hobbits were men in the eyes of Eru and the Valar. Even the Elves felt that the halflings were far more like Men than they were Elves. Hobbits were simply short Men with large & tough feet. Glorfindel’s prophecy was not that no Man (or man) _could_ kill the Witch-King. It was that no man _would_ kill him. In other words, it was not a statement of possibility or ability, but rather of predestination. Anyone wielding the barrow-blade could have pierced the WK’s eldritch protections and rendered him vulnerable to ordinarily blades, and after that was done, anyone could have struck him down. But Glorfindel saw that particular incident. It was as if he had prophesied that _None but Barack Obama shall be the first black president of the United States_. That’s not saying that no one else had the ability, but that Barry would be in the right place and the right time. I also tend to think that Glorfindel, foreseeing the WK’s final battle, “deliberately” phrased his prophecy to be obscure. Much wiser than saying “You shall die in March 3019 in Pelennor Fields, Lord of the Nazgul.” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/127 "2011-03-29T20:54:55Z")
Even if we take hobbits as a race of humans, it could still be truly said that Merry was not a man, since he was not yet adult. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/128 "2011-03-29T21:18:22Z")
Why is it “taking the eagles to Mordor” always shows up in these topics? Do Balrogs have wings? 😉 Anyway, I always thought it was Gildor, the elves they met early in their journey. “You have to get out of here, you have Black Riders tailing you, you have no weapons or experience, and you’re supposed to meet Gandalf who has disappeared” How about lending a hand? I know, I know, not in the direction Tolkein wanted to take his narrative. And the elves don’t get involved because they’re leaving. Etc etc. But it still almost reminds me of an exchange in “Bored of the Rings”: There is much danger and peril. You leave at dawn. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/129 "2011-03-29T21:22:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if we take hobbits as a race of humans, it could still be truly said that Merry was not a man, since he was not yet adult. **Chronos** , **Chronos** , **Chronos**. You fell into my trap. Surprising, really. But it’s late in the day and you are probably tired from doing physics & stuff. [Meriadoc was born in TA 2942](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Brandybuck); in 3019, at the time of the Battle of Pelennor Fields, he was 37, and thus nine years past the Hobbit age of maturity. It was Pippin who was still shy of his 29th birthday. That’s why Elrond was specifically against the young Took going on the Quest (he says he is uneasy about both the young hobbits, but in particular Merry); Gandalf & Frodo were basically taking a 17-year-old kid to war. I have directed the remaining minions to deliver you some coffee. > [@HubZilla](#): > > Why is it “taking the eagles to Mordor” always shows up in these topics? Do Balrogs have wings? 😉 I don’t think anybody seriously thinks the story would be better if they’d done that. Rather, it’s that people are irked that not doing so isn’t explained. At the very least, Pippin could have suggested it, only to have Gandalf, Strider, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Elrond, Frodo, Glorfindel, Merry, or the second Dwarf on the left shoot him down. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/130 "2011-03-29T21:30:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > At the very least, Pippin could have suggested it, only to have Gandalf, Strider, Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, Elrond, Frodo, Glorfindel, Merry, or the second Dwarf on the left shoot him down. “Let the Ring anywhere near those flapping bastards? We have enough problems without a Dark Lord who can _fly._” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/131 "2011-03-29T21:31:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “Let the Ring anywhere near those flapping bastards? We have enough problems without a Dark Lord who can _fly._” :: rushes to co-worker’s office, steals his hat, dons it, and returns to computer :: I take off my hat to you, sir! :: doffs hat :: And, no, I’m not giving the hat back. I SAID I was stealing it, didn’t I? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/132 "2011-03-29T21:47:55Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Do Balrogs have wings? 😉 Balrogs clearly do not have wings. ETA: [cite](http://www.rilstone.talktalk.net/misreading-LOTR.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/133 "2011-03-29T21:50:19Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Balrogs clearly do not have wings. > > ETA: [cite](http://www.rilstone.talktalk.net/misreading-LOTR.htm). Don’t…you…dare. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/134 "2011-03-29T22:14:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **Chronos** , **Chronos** , **Chronos**. You fell into my trap. Surprising, really. But it’s late in the day and you are probably tired from doing physics & stuff. > > [Meriadoc was born in TA 2942](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merry_Brandybuck); in 3019, at the time of the Battle of Pelennor Fields, he was 37, and thus nine years past the Hobbit age of maturity. Nine? 37 - 33 doesn’t make nine, unless wizards count differently to other folk. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/135 "2011-03-29T22:18:25Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Nine? 37 - 33 doesn’t make nine, unless wizards count differently to other folk. I am going to pretend I was giving you an opening for a Hobbit quote, as otherwise I have to get all blathery and menacy and stabby and so forth. You are, of course, correct. I was thinking that the Hobbit age of majority was 29 (Pippin’s age during the War of the Ring) but that isn’t a difference of nine from 37 either. The important thing here is to blame the accursed Czechoslovakians for distracting me. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/136 "2011-03-29T23:45:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I also tend to think that Glorfindel, foreseeing the WK’s final battle, “deliberately” phrased his prophecy to be obscure. Much wiser than saying “You shall die in March 3019 in Pelennor Fields, Lord of the Nazgul.” Well that and it tempts the WK into overconfidence: “No man can slay me huh? Way hey and off to slaughter Rohirrim I go!” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/137 "2011-03-29T23:48:23Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > Well that and it tempts the WK into overconfidence: “No man can slay me huh? Way hey and off to slaughter Rohirrim I go!” My point exactly. It leads one to a time-travel paradox, of course, in that the WK only dies if Glorfindel words the prophecy correctly, but that’s true of many such prophecies. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/138 "2011-03-30T00:02:14Z")
> [@Arnold\_Winkelried](#): > > Grima was his real name and Wormtongue was probably some nickname given to him by some of his detractors. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > Wormtoungue is what almost everyone but Theoden called him. Okay, I wasn’t sure about that. So it’s just a nickname… wait a sec. That’s even worse. Theoden is still an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/139 "2011-03-30T00:09:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if we take hobbits as a race of humans, it could still be truly said that Merry was not a man, since he was not yet adult. And besides **Skald** , I went on in length early in the thread about how Meriadoc was indeed an adult and very competent. The movie made him nearly as foolish as young Pippin but Merry was a most astounding Hobbit. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161/140 "2011-03-30T00:10:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I have directed the remaining minions to deliver you some coffee. Right on all points, assuming that by “coffee” you mean “tea”. Oh, and better make it decaf; I gave up caffeine for Lent. (I’m not helping, am I?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-incompetent-character-in-tolkiens-legendarium/576161.md?page=8)