# Who is the most skilled combatant? (Comics) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624 "2006-03-23T19:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/1 "2006-03-23T19:00:21Z")
Based on this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364138](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=364138) If we were to take away all superpowers/mutations/magic/and so on, who’s the most skilled hand-to-hand combat fighter? Conditions: We can’t really cross-company compare, so a seperate “best” for each company is probably best (so one for Marvel, one for DC, etc). If it’s a character who through outside means was given power, they aren’t included. No Hulk, Thing, or Captain Marvel - though Bruce Banner or Billy Batson would be ok, for example. Aliens are fine, so yes to Superman or J’onn J’onzz (though J’onn would be in his natural form). Characters are reduced in power to only the abilites they would have as a normal biological entity - if they need powers to survive, they’re out. Muscle mass is kept at what they “look like” levels - so Superman is reduced to very muscular near-human. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/2 "2006-03-23T19:02:37Z")
Val Armorr. No question about it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/3 "2006-03-23T19:17:10Z")
Well, based on my memories of the comics I read as a kid: In the DC universe, Karate Kid was so skilled that it amounted to a virtual super power. Running a pretty distant second would probably have been Richard Dragon, then Batman, with Manhunter (Paul Kirk), Wildcat, and a few others just barely behind him. Please remember that I quit reading regularly right around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths. In the Marvel Universe, wouldn’t it pretty much have to be Iron Fist, Shang Chi, or one of the other martial arts-oriented heroes? Of the costumed hero types, I’ve been given to understand that Captain America is darned good. Right around Batman good, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/4 "2006-03-23T19:29:54Z")
Judge Dred must be pretty high on the list. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/5 "2006-03-23T19:34:52Z")
Don’t forget Lady Shiva in DC. She and Batman sort of waffle back and forth in terms of who is better than the other. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/6 "2006-03-23T19:50:18Z")
can’t…resist… Batman if he’s prepared. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/7 "2006-03-23T19:50:21Z")
Don’t forget Lady Shiva in DC. She and Batman sort of waffle back and forth in terms of who is better than the other. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/8 "2006-03-23T19:56:30Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Val Armorr. No question about it. Seconded. He bitch-slaps Daxamites and Kryptonians in hand-to-hand. Do not mess with Mr. Armorr, unless you are Duplicate Kid. ---
**Author:** ![ddgryphon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8c91f0/32.png) [@ddgryphon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ddgryphon)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/9 "2006-03-23T19:57:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Well, based on my memories of the comics I read as a kid: > > In the DC universe, Karate Kid was so skilled that it amounted to a virtual super power. Running a pretty distant second would probably have been Richard Dragon, then Batman, with Manhunter (Paul Kirk), Wildcat, and a few others just barely behind him. Please remember that I quit reading regularly right around the time of Crisis on Infinite Earths. > > In the Marvel Universe, wouldn’t it pretty much have to be Iron Fist, Shang Chi, or one of the other martial arts-oriented heroes? Of the costumed hero types, I’ve been given to understand that Captain America is darned good. Right around Batman good, in fact. That is basically my DC List. Marvel is a toss up between Captain America Task Master ( who has something like a physical photographic memory/photographic muscle thing going on) Black Panther Iron Fist Blade Wolverine might make this list due to his Ninja Training ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/10 "2006-03-23T20:10:08Z")
DC: Karate Kid Lady Shiva / Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) (Tie) Richard Dragon Black Canary Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) Batman Nightwing Bronze Tiger Wildcat Robin There’s probably a more obscure villain or two that could be crammed in there. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/11 "2006-03-23T20:13:12Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > DC: > Karate Kid > Lady Shiva / Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) (Tie) > Richard Dragon > Black Canary > Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) > Batman > Nightwing > Bronze Tiger > Wildcat > Robin > > There’s probably a more obscure villain or two that could be crammed in there. A great list, but I’d put Deathstroke on there too – after all, he whupped the entire JLA (Green Lantern Kyle, Flash Wally, Green Arrow Ollie, Black Canary, Atom, Hawkman, and even ZATANNA) single-handedly. I’d love to see Slade take on Batman mano a mano, or most of the others on that list. I’d also add the Question toward the bottom of that list – martial arts is one of his many specialties, and he was trained by Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/12 "2006-03-23T20:21:15Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > DC: > Karate Kid > Lady Shiva / Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) (Tie) > Richard Dragon > Black Canary > Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) > Batman > Nightwing > Bronze Tiger > Wildcat > Robin > > There’s probably a more obscure villain or two that could be crammed in there. I’m told Batgirl has cemented a firm superiority to Lady Shiva in the last issues of her title. Richard Dragon is as good as Shiva, if not better. He threw the fight in Issue #12, but had it well in hand until he did so. Deathstroke - it’s debateable how much of his ability comes from his enhanced reflexes and reaction time, like Captain America. Red Hood - There’re strong indications that Robin II has moved up on the ladder since his return. Hawkman - he’s tough in a brawl, no formal martial arts though. Ra’s Al Ghul and his kin are quite skilled as well. But Val Armorr takes the cake, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/13 "2006-03-23T20:23:01Z")
Is Green Arrow really above Batman? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/14 "2006-03-23T21:00:41Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#): > > A great list, but I’d put Deathstroke on there too – after all, he whupped the entire JLA (Green Lantern Kyle, Flash Wally, Green Arrow Ollie, Black Canary, Atom, Hawkman, and even ZATANNA) single-handedly. I’d love to see Slade take on Batman mano a mano, or most of the others on that list. I don’t disagree, but I disqualified Slade because he’s got powers that are impossible to separate from his fighter prowess. He, like Batman, also relies on establishing a tactical superiority before the first blow is even struck. In other words, he’s sneaky and he cheats. I can’t say how he’d do if his strength and reflexes were reduced to “human” levels and he was forced into a straightforward fight. Presumably pretty well, but in Shiva’s league? I tried to restrict myself to how they’d perform in a somewhat controlled environment, using pure fighting skill, not ambushes and traps. Plus that fight in Identity Crisis was poorly written. 😉 Question, Huntress, Mr. Terriffic and a bunch of others are just below this list. > [@Apos](#): > > Is Green Arrow really above Batman? Connor Hawke is. Ollie Queen (the best-known GA) isn’t. When Connor was lead GA, Chuck Dixon tried to establish him as the best of the best. Then Dragon came out of retirement, Batgirl appeared, and Connor dropped out of the spotlight. He’s still up there, though. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/15 "2006-03-23T21:03:48Z")
I read the title as “Most Killed Combatant” I thought it was for listing the most character who have been killed/believed dead and then came back. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/16 "2006-03-23T21:06:11Z")
Ah. That would be Marvel’s Mister Immortal, then. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/17 "2006-03-23T21:17:46Z")
Given some more thought, I’ve got a couple more conditions. I don’t know how they’d apply to all the characters already said, though. No robots, androids, any variation of artificial life. No cyborgs unless they can exist without their cybernetics. No equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/18 "2006-03-23T21:18:22Z")
But has Connor Hawke ever taken on Batman and won? I mean, Batman is roughly on equal with Shiva, and Shiva is on equal with Dragon (hell, she killed him at one point) and… ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/19 "2006-03-23T22:08:01Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > But has Connor Hawke ever taken on Batman and won? I mean, Batman is roughly on equal with Shiva, and Shiva is on equal with Dragon (hell, she killed him at one point) and… Connor gave Dragon a good fight. He’s definitely close to Dragon and Shiva in skill. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/20 "2006-03-23T22:23:00Z")
Why no love for Bullseye? In his latest incarnation he’s pretty much unstoppable as a hand to hand combatant if a weapon of any type is at hand (even a loose tooth). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624.md?page=2)