# Who is the most skilled combatant? (Comics) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624 "2006-03-23T19:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/41 "2006-03-24T21:30:51Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Maybe they changed it, but I recall Captain Amreica being a pretty darn good, but not nearly in Iron Fist’s class. He did have a lot fo skill and experience, but he was still not close to being an absolute master. Without his superpowers (granted, very balanced, minor, but useful superpowers) he wouldn’t rate. Captain America has no superpowers—he represents the peak physical potential of a normal, unaltered human being. And if I’m remembering my [Marvel Encyclopedia](http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/captainamerica.htm) correctly, he’s generally acknowledged to be the finest unarmed combatant in the Marvel universe. I had no idea Iron Fist was as highly rated as that. I do recall one occasion where he and Daredevil fought, and they were so evenly matched they couldn’t hit each other. So given that Daredevil is generally agreed to be not-quite in Cap’s league, that would put Iron Fist in a similar position. ---
**Author:** ![ddgryphon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8c91f0/32.png) [@ddgryphon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ddgryphon)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/42 "2006-03-24T21:39:10Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > I thought he was the guy who trained everyone else in hand-to-hand combat. His DC equivalents would be Shiva and Wildcat. I’d put him near the top. This was my memory – he also trained SHIELD agents for a while in the 60’s/70’s He is, at the very least, in the top five of basic HTH skilled combatants in the Marvel Universe (even without the SS formula). ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/43 "2006-03-24T21:44:10Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Even without powers, he’s at least a match for Batman. I think it was in _Marvel vs. DC_ #4 where Cap fought Bats, and Bats called off the match because (a) they were wasting time instead of saving the universe, and (b) Bats believed Caps would eventually win. \ ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/44 "2006-03-24T21:55:36Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > Maybe they changed it, but I recall Captain Amreica being a pretty darn good, but not nearly in Iron Fist’s class. He did have a lot fo skill and experience, but he was still not close to being an absolute master. Without his superpowers (granted, very balanced, minor, but useful superpowers) he wouldn’t rate. Iron Fist and Cap fought many years ago in “Iron Fist #6”? Cap was working Fist over pretty good. Granted, Cap was trying harder. Fist was quite amazed and said something to himself like “His fighting technique is basic, but it is excecuted perfectly”. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/45 "2006-03-24T22:03:36Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Invulnerable or not, being able to bash people with a shield that effectively is a pretty impressive combat skill. He’s not as flashy as some of the Asian-style martial artists, but it works. I wouldn’t put him at quite the same level as Iron Fist or Shang Chi, but he’s close. Even without powers, he’s at least a match for Batman. Just to point out - no equipment. So no Cap shield. Wasn’t sure if you were letting him keep it or just pointing out he’s good with it, but I thought i’d just be clear. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/46 "2006-03-24T22:06:40Z")
Actually thinking about it, Cap. may be not be allowed as is - the SS formula counts as an “outside power”, really. If Hulk’s out, then Cap’s out, too. Without the SS formula, do we know how skilled he is? ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/47 "2006-03-24T22:13:17Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Actually thinking about it, Cap. may be not be allowed as is - the SS formula counts as an “outside power”, really. If Hulk’s out, then Cap’s out, too. Without the SS formula, do we know how skilled he is? There was an arc where Cap had the serum removed. He had a tougher time because he wasn’t as strong and got winded easier. But overall he was still pretty much the same skill level and managed to take out some tough dudes. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/48 "2006-03-24T22:38:49Z")
Besides which, the Super-Soldier Serum[sup]TM[/sup] doesn’t give Cap super powers. It merely places him at the peak of human physical perfection, according to the Marvel U stats. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/49 "2006-03-24T23:32:59Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Judge Dred must be pretty high on the list. There’ve been quite a few [Dredd/Batman crossovers](http://www.2000adreview.co.uk/reviews/extra/2004/trades/batmandredd/batmandredd.shtml): in **Judgement On Gotham** , set in Mega-City One, they pretty much fight each other to a standstill before a team of Judges pummel an unequipped Batman to the ground, and ditto in **Vendetta In Gotham** , which is more or less an excuse for the pair to have an extended punch-up on Batman’s turf: it’s about an even match. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/50 "2006-03-25T00:13:59Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I think it was in _Marvel vs. DC_ #4 where Cap fought Bats, and Bats called off the match because (a) they were wasting time instead of saving the universe, and (b) Bats believed Caps would eventually win. > > \ JLA/Avengers #2. Batman said … (digs out his deluxe edition of JLA/Avengers) "It’s conceivable you could **beat** me, Avenger. But it would take you a **very** long time. " ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/51 "2006-03-25T00:32:43Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > JLA/Avengers #2. Batman said … (digs out his deluxe edition of JLA/Avengers) "It’s conceivable you could **beat** me, Avenger. But it would take you a **very** long time. " Just to pause, that was a masterstroke by Busiek. Gives Cap his props as a fighter, while acknowledging that Batman’s both smart enough to see it, and still find a way to come out ahead. Plus, since they never actually finished fighting, Batman fanboys don’t actually have to concede defeat. It’s almost a pity that he had to give a more definitive answer for Thor vs Superman. I liked it, but anything he did was bound to end up controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/52 "2006-03-25T00:35:57Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Just to pause, that was a masterstroke by Busiek. Agreed. Plus, while it’s conceivable, we all know Batman was prepared to whup dat soldier-boy’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/53 "2006-03-25T00:38:44Z")
Thor v. Supes is a problem because Supes’ vulnerabilities and abilities have varied too much over the years. Anyway, the SUper Soldier Serum does give Cap super powers. No human can possibly do what he does. It’s not humanly possible to be at the peak of performance for all things like Cap. And in any case, he’s above any actual real humans, as he has no flaws at all. I was unaware that they’d placed CAp’s skill so high. He’s never really shown any unusual skill, and certainly didn’t seem to be in iron Fist’s league to me. But C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/54 "2006-03-25T00:39:46Z")
I want to say Hunter Rose, the original Grendel, should be on this list (with no super powers, either), but his best combat skill was fencing, and he did eventually get killed by Argent the werewolf. He still fought Batman to a standstill, though. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/55 "2006-03-25T01:15:19Z")
No love for The Punisher? He once killed every superheo/villain in the Marvel universe. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/56 "2006-03-25T01:24:11Z")
> [@Peter Morris](#): > > No love for The Punisher? He once killed every superheo/villain in the Marvel universe. Not in HTH combat he didn’t. And that story was pretty much fanwankery IMVHO. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/57 "2006-03-25T04:34:51Z")
Any thoughts on where Dancer (from Grimjack) would be on the list? ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/58 "2006-03-25T09:36:24Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > This is degenerating into "Who _are_ the most skilled combatant_s_? > > Back to the titular question: > DC: Val Armorr (future and overall); Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Black Canary(?) or Connor Hawke(?) (current) _Should Batman be in that list?_ Yes, Batman should be on the list. He has fought Shiva to a standstill, as did Connor Hawke. While Val is definitely better (at least the old one. Don’t know yet about the current incarnation.) the others on the list, including Batman, are pretty much in a dead heat. Any of them can beat the others depending on the vagaries of the situation. Batman will usually win because he has skills beyond his martial arts, but he can lose to them. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2006, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/59 "2006-03-25T11:45:06Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > I had no idea Iron Fist was as highly rated as that. I do recall one occasion where he and Daredevil fought, and they were so evenly matched they couldn’t hit each other. So given that Daredevil is generally agreed to be not-quite in Cap’s league, that would put Iron Fist in a similar position. DD with powers is easily in the same league as Cap, Spiderman or the other "street level’ heroes. He could manage to fight IF because of those powers but without them he’d presumably be toast. That therefore puts IF, who is esentially unpowered well and truly in Cap’s league. Basically no real world person should be able to take on DD or Spiderman in a fight and expect to last more than 5 seconds. They’d simply be completely outclassed by the enhanced abilities. DD for example is able to detect when someone is about to throw a punch _before_ the arm starts to move. The fact that IF or Cap could manage to go a few rounds at least demonstrates that they are the pinnacle of ‘normal’ prowess. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/60 "2006-03-26T00:24:33Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Basically no real world person should be able to take on DD or Spiderman in a fight and expect to last more than 5 seconds. They’d simply be completely outclassed by the enhanced abilities. DD for example is able to detect when someone is about to throw a punch _before_ the arm starts to move. The fact that IF or Cap could manage to go a few rounds at least demonstrates that they are the pinnacle of ‘normal’ prowess. Nitpick: That should be ‘_Spider-Man_ is able to detect when someone is about to throw a punch before the arm starts to move.’ Spider-senses being faintly precognitive and all. Daredevil’s radar-sense is not precognitive. Agree with the rest of your post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624.md?page=4)