# Who is the most skilled combatant? (Comics) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 23, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624 "2006-03-23T19:00:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/61 "2006-03-26T02:35:36Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > Nitpick: That should be ‘_Spider-Man_ is able to detect when someone is about to throw a punch before the arm starts to move.’ No, I meant DD. DD is able to use his sense to detect the changes in the muscles and stresses on the bone of the arm when someone prepares to throw a punch. As such he can dodge _before_ the arm starts to move. That ability was noted in numerous stories in the late 80s or early 90s. He could even use the same basic ability to dodge gunshots (with limited success of course) by moving when the pin/hammer started to move. Whether those abilities have been altered in later issues and various rebootsI don’t know, I gave up following comics in the mid 90s. But since the IF vs DD showdown was presumably late 70s my point stands. Spider-man (silly hyphen) can of course go one better and start to dodge simply because someone is _thinking_ about running across the room and throwing a punch when they get there. IIRC the old Marvel RPG gave Spidey a permanent combat sense of Monstrous while DD had an Amazing level that had to be focussed. ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/62 "2006-03-26T04:08:02Z")
More nitpicking: Daredevil was probably listening to a person’s fluctuating heartbeat rather than just tensed muscles and bone. It’s far more characteristic and I’m not recalling Daredevil ever doing what you describe. Daredevil _might_ be able to “detect” tensed muscles, but the ability to react lies in one’s reflexes. Daredevil possesses keen reaction time but he’s nowhere near as fast as Spidey. Still, given you are citing comics I haven’t read much of (Sount’s like Denny O’ Neil or Nocenti’s run. I own the more definitive early to mid-80s Miller run, Daredevil Born Aagain and and the recently ended Bendis run, skipping the period you mentioned altogether) I am prepared to accept this may have been a fluke I’m unaware of. STILL: **Reacting _before_ punch is thrown** = Spider-Man \*\*Reacting while punch is thrown \*\* = Daredevil **Does Daredevil react before a punch is thrown?** Theoretically possible but uncharacteristic. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/63 "2006-03-26T23:37:54Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > **Reacting _before_ punch is thrown** = Spider-Man > \*\*Reacting while punch is thrown \*\* = Daredevil > **Does Daredevil react before a punch is thrown?** Theoretically possible but uncharacteristic. But typical spidey-sense operation is “I’m about to get punched!” POW. He can see it coming, but rarely actually gets out of the way in time. You’d think that he would get used to it after a while: “Hey, I’m going to get punched! Now I’ll get out of the way!” And yes, Cap is one of the top 5 or so in HTH. The serum, plus his constant exercise, makes him as good as humanly possible at everything physical. Wolverine is skilled, has a lot of experience, heals, and is very strong and fast, but ultimately he would be beaten. Without tools, Bats would have his work cut out for him. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/64 "2006-03-27T00:31:34Z")
What about Puck? Eh? ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/65 "2006-03-27T12:48:17Z")
The origianl Grimjack. One tough, mean old bastard. And for that matter, take away his powers and I’m sure Lobo would kick the crap out of most heroes, in a barroom brawler kind of way. ---
**Author:** ![First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@First\_Amongst\_Daves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/First_Amongst_Daves)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/66 "2006-03-27T12:53:28Z")
You can’t tell me that the only child raised on an island of Scythian Greek warriors and their swords, spears and axes (Wonder Woman), sans powers wouldn’t be able to kick Batman’s bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/67 "2006-03-27T15:22:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, I meant DD. DD is able to use his sense to detect the changes in the muscles and stresses on the bone of the arm when someone prepares to throw a punch. As such he can dodge before the arm starts to move. That ability was noted in numerous stories in the late 80s or early 90s. He could even use the same basic ability to dodge gunshots (with limited success of course) by moving when the pin/hammer started to move. I don’t recall DD doing this either, but if it happened after “Born Again” (sounds like it from your description) I wouldn’t have read it. > [@Blake](#): > > IIRC the old Marvel RPG gave Spidey a permanent combat sense of Monstrous while DD had an Amazing level that had to be focussed. I think you’ve got it backwards. The Marvel RPG had Daredevil’s Intuition at Monstrous, and noted that he was impossible to blindside (pardon the pun). Spidey’s Intuition wasn’t as high as DD’s; not only that, if he were somehow deprived of his spider-sense, his agility dropped as well, demonstrating how much he relied on his spider-sense to fight effectively. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/68 "2006-03-27T18:03:38Z")
Has anyone mentioned Vandal Savage, take away his immortality he still must have learned every concievable fighting trick in the book, heck he probubly _wrote_ the book. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/69 "2006-03-27T21:40:49Z")
> [@First Amongst Daves](#): > > You can’t tell me that the only child raised on an island of Scythian Greek warriors and their swords, spears and axes (Wonder Woman), sans powers wouldn’t be able to kick Batman’s bottom. Remember that Batman has studied darn near every style of combat around, from karate to kung-fu to wrestling to armed melee. And he put more effort into mastering them than Diana did. Not that’s she bad; not at all. She’s a very good student. Batman, however, is _obsessed_. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/70 "2006-03-28T01:30:50Z")
But…but…but…Puck! ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/71 "2006-03-28T01:36:35Z")
Watch your language. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/72 "2006-03-28T02:59:14Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Watch your language. Eat it, potsie! Seriously, what about Martian Manhunter. He can read your mind and change shape to beat you. A black belt won’t really help there, willit? Also, Karnak of the Inhumans. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/73 "2006-03-28T03:13:14Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > Eat it, potsie! > > Seriously, what about Martian Manhunter. He can read your mind and change shape to beat you. A black belt won’t really help there, willit? > > Also, Karnak of the Inhumans. _cough_ > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Aliens are fine, so yes to Superman or\*\* J’onn J’onzz \*\* (though J’onn would be in his natural form). > Characters are reduced in power to only the abilites they would have as a normal biological entity - if they need powers to survive, they’re out. Muscle mass is kept at what they “look like” levels - so Superman is reduced to very muscular near-human. Not reading the OP, where I said no powers and used MM himself as an example? Shame on you, **Love Rhombus** , shame. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/74 "2006-03-28T04:51:41Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > _cough_ > > Not reading the OP, where I said no powers and used MM himself as an example? Shame on you, **Love Rhombus** , shame. 😛 OTOH, J’onn’s normal biological abilities are all of his powers. All Martians had them. He isn’t like Superman where the powers come from being on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/75 "2006-03-28T13:13:31Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > Also, Karnak of the Inhumans. Dang, I wanted to be the first to mention him, but instaed I’ll (maybe) be the first to mention The Black Panther. I seem to remember in Kirby’s day he was as good as Captain America and he had no serum or radiation or nothin’. Just a big can of Wakandan Whoop-Ass. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/76 "2006-03-28T14:19:01Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > OTOH, J’onn’s normal biological abilities are all of his powers. All Martians had them. He isn’t like Superman where the powers come from being on Earth. And yet, in the retarded JLA : Act of God Elseworld, he gets stuck in a base shape. Natural or not, it’s a power. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/77 "2006-03-28T15:57:11Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > And yet, in the retarded JLA : Act of God Elseworld, he gets stuck in a base shape. > > Natural or not, it’s a power. Of course, in that same suckfest they took away Aquaman’s water-breating. Since apparently it’s a power. Yeah, and if a bird got hit it would have lost the “power” of flight. Sheesh that was a bad one. “Time for the Hand to lend a hand”? What about Blue Beetle? Ok, currently Ted Kord wouldn’t last very long in a fight(hee hee that’s be a pretty dark battle, wouldn’t it?), but what about before recent events? Also, Moon Knight? Kingpin? MAYBE Aquaman. He’d be somewhere on the list. Guy does that much fighting, he’d have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/78 "2006-03-28T17:19:39Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > What about Blue Beetle? Ok, currently Ted Kord wouldn’t last very long in a fight(hee hee that’s be a pretty dark battle, wouldn’t it?), but what about before recent events? I’ve always seen Ted as being more a gadget guy than an hand-to-hand fighter. Without equipment I don’t think he’d do very well at all against dedicated fighters. > [@](#): > > MAYBE Aquaman. He’d be somewhere on the list. Guy does that much fighting, he’d have to be. I’d put him above Superman, but below Wonder Woman. He gets more practice than most people his power level, but still hasn’t had much formal training. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/79 "2006-03-28T17:42:44Z")
What about…[PROMETHEUS?](http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a115/SpacemanBill/misterchoochoo.jpg) ? Also, Hercules. 'Course, he might be someone who depends on his muscle instead of real technique. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624/80 "2006-03-28T18:13:57Z")
> [@Love Rhombus](#): > > What about…[PROMETHEUS?](http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a115/SpacemanBill/misterchoochoo.jpg) ? Without his helmet (which counts as gear) he’s an incompetent geek. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-most-skilled-combatant-comics/349624.md?page=5)