# Who is the oldest person we know in history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260 "2012-11-17T00:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/21 "2012-11-17T19:39:09Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > That is a rather narrow definition of historical. What about persons of whom we precisely know when and where they were born and when and where they died, but nothing more than that? In my book that would qualify. I would also accept anyone whose name and existence we know of through historical accounts or records, even if not famous. It does not apply to anonymous human remains that have later had a nickname applied to them, like Lucy or Otzi. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/22 "2012-11-17T19:57:56Z")
Might it be someone on the [Sumerian King List](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List)? Wikipedia says, “The list blends prehistorical, presumably mythical predynastic rulers with implausibly lengthy reigns with later, more plausibly historical dynasties. Although the primal kings are historically unattested, this does not preclude their possible correspondence with historical rulers who were later mythicized. Some Assyriologists view the predynastic kings as a later fictional addition.” Is there a consensus on the earliest king on the list that is considered to be generally accepted as historical? It seems that En-me-barage-si is the first king that is “confirmed independently from epigraphical evidence”. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/23 "2012-11-17T20:15:55Z")
Some of these Sumerian rulers would beat Ötzi, BTW, although not more than their names and the approximate time they lived are known. But we **do** know which blood type **Ötzi** had, his fashion preferences and what he ate for dinner. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/24 "2012-11-17T20:22:16Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > But we **do** know which blood type **Ötzi** had, his fashion preferences and what he ate for dinner. How does that make him historical? Please provide a definition of what you mean by “historical.” ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/25 "2012-11-17T21:04:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > How does that make him historical? Please provide a definition of what you mean by “historical.” historical = in the past ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/26 "2012-11-17T21:34:27Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Through news reports, not through any historical record dating to his own time. What is his actual name? “Otzi” is a nickname for the remains of the person otherwise called the “Iceman.” > > What is your definition of “historical”? It seems to be different from that used in dictionaries or in the OP. > > In which of these senses is Otzi historical? Natural history. I’m surprised you didn’t consider that. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/27 "2012-11-17T21:37:40Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > historical = in the past [QUOTE=TriPolar] Natural history. I’m surprised you didn’t consider that [/QUOTE] So in your book, any fossil human remains qualify, even (let’s say) a tooth. I’m pretty sure that’s not what the OP meant. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/28 "2012-11-17T21:41:14Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > historical = in the past What’s the difference between historic and prehistoric, then? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/29 "2012-11-17T21:45:25Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So in your book, any fossil human remains qualify, even (let’s say) a tooth. > > I’m pretty sure that’s not what the OP meant. Well, the OP is researching options for a dress party and I would argue that dressing up as Ötzi is pretty cool (I’m considering this myself now, BTW). 😉 If the tooth tells us something about how this human lived, what he ate, whether he suffered illnesses etc. than yes, it is definitely historical. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/30 "2012-11-17T21:49:32Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So in your book, any fossil human remains qualify, even (let’s say) a tooth. > > I’m pretty sure that’s not what the OP meant. Yes. I mentioned bones initially. The problem would be making a costume other than your typical Halloween skeleton suit. Ötzi is more ancient and more definitely exists than some Pharoah known only from a hand drawn picture. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/31 "2012-11-17T21:49:35Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > If the tooth tells us something about how this human lived, what he ate, whether he suffered illnesses etc. than yes, it is definitely historical. No it isn’t, by any accepted definition. By your definition Tyrannosaurus rex is historical. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/32 "2012-11-17T21:51:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes. I mentioned bones initially. The problem would be making a costume other than your typical Halloween skeleton suit. Ötzi is more ancient and more definitely exists than some Pharoah known only from a hand drawn picture. You’re using your own definition of “historical,” then. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/33 "2012-11-17T21:53:17Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > What’s the difference between historic and prehistoric, then? I can understand your point. Prehistoric by definition means: before **written** history started. But I think that this is too narrow. What about, for instance, Native Americans? No written accounts of their past exist but they certainly had a rich history before the Europeans showed up. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/34 "2012-11-17T21:55:58Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I can understand your point. Prehistoric by definition means: before **written** history started. But I think that this is too narrow. What about, for instance, Native Americans? No written accounts of their past exist but they certainly had a rich history before the Europeans showed up. No, they had a past, but they didn’t have a history in the formal sense before Europeans showed up. That’s the meaning of “historical” vs prehistoric. Not to be snarky, but this is a serious question. Is English your first language? ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/35 "2012-11-17T22:00:36Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > …In which of these senses is Otzi historical? Could a case be made that Otzi, himself, be considered to be historical data in that he is direct evidence of what was worn at a certain time in history? “1. a : of, relating to, or having the character of history \” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/36 "2012-11-17T22:02:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > You’re using your own definition of “historical,” then. We’ve been through this before. How is Ötzi not part of natural history? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/37 "2012-11-17T22:10:39Z")
> [@CC](#): > > Could a case be made that Otzi, himself, be considered to be historical data in that he is direct evidence of what was worn at a certain time in history? > > “1. a : of, relating to, or having the character of history \” Nope. That’s archaeology, not history. > [@TriPolar](#): > > We’ve been through this before. How is Ötzi not part of natural history? Irrelevant, of course. The OP refences “history,” not “natural history,” and the two are quite distinct. A museum of history will have quite different exhibits than a museum of natural history. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/38 "2012-11-17T22:13:11Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No, they had a past, but they didn’t have a history in the formal sense before Europeans showed up. That’s the meaning of “historical” vs prehistoric. > > Not to be snarky, but this is a serious question. Is English your first language? You are right, thanks for pointing this out, but it doesn’t make any difference in this case. I grant you that traditionally a clear distinction has been made between historical (=written history) and prehistorical (=no written history), but that’s a 19th century approach. It is my understanding that modern historians don’t do that any more. The old terms are still in use, though. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/39 "2012-11-17T22:16:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Irrelevant, of course. The OP refences “history,” not “natural history,” and the two are quite distinct. A museum of history will have quite different exhibits than a museum of natural history. That is simply your interpretation. The OP is free to reject the Iceman and either of our interpretations. But more to the point, Ötzi can be verified to have existed. Narner and Ka cannot. That’s why I mentioned him in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/40 "2012-11-17T22:17:00Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > You are right, thanks for pointing this out, but it doesn’t make any difference in this case. Of course it does. The OP references “history” and “historical people,” and gives a Pharoah as an example. It’s pretty clear that written history is what is meant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260.md?page=3)