# Who is the oldest person we know in history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 17, 2012, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260 "2012-11-17T00:24:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/41 "2012-11-17T22:20:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But more to the point, Ötzi can be verified to have existed. No person named Otzi can be verified to have existed. And even so, there are a host of far older human remains, so that’s not a viable suggestion even with regard to your own interpretation. By your definition, “the oldest person we know in history” may be depicted[here.](http://news.discovery.com/history/oldest-human-israel-101228.html) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/42 "2012-11-17T22:28:29Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > No person named Otzi can be verified to have existed. And even so, there are a host of far older human remains, so that’s not a viable suggestion even with regard to your own interpretation. > > By your definition, “the oldest person we know in history” may be depicted[here.](http://news.discovery.com/history/oldest-human-israel-101228.html) I can verify that a man named Ötzi existed. True, that was probably not his name at the time he lived. But a name was not part of the question in the OP. Considering the requirements stated in the OP, Ötzi is more ancient and more verifiably existed than a Pharoah. In addition it is possible to create a very realistic costume to portray him. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/43 "2012-11-17T22:29:19Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Of course it does. The OP references “history” and “historical people,” and gives a Pharoah as an example. It’s pretty clear that written history is what is meant. I’m guessing that the OP did not consider the intricacies of nomenclature in historical academia. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/44 "2012-11-17T22:56:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A simple way to disambiguate OP’s question is to ask for the earliest person whose name we know. Of course this leaves ambiguity – does a Pharaoh whose name was probably some unknown word meaning _scorpion_ count? Yeah, I think this is a fair way to approach it. After posting the thread I realised it was going to be quite an ambiguous task, which is quite regrettable. I don’t _think_ the person who is putting on the fancy dress party will mind if I turned up as Otzi. 😃 But I understand where the posters who are saying he’s not a ‘historical’ figure are coming from. > [@chappachula](#): > > I remember learning in jr high school that written history began in Sumeria in the Fertile Crescent. > > So from the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer), listing the kings of Sumeria—“The earliest monarch whose historical existence has been independently attested through archaeological inscription is En-me-barage-si of Kish (ca. 2700–2600 BC)” > > how far back do the Egyptian Pharoahs go? Interesting. [This guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iry-Hor) is said to have reigned around 3200BC. Doesn’t seem too concrete though. In any case the debate on what constitutes a ‘historical’ figure it interesting. How would oral history factor in? Or does it have to be recorded somehow? > [@Colibri](#): > > No person named Otzi can be verified to have existed. And even so, there are a host of far older human remains, so that’s not a viable suggestion even with regard to your own interpretation. > > By your definition, “the oldest person we know in history” may be depicted[here.](http://news.discovery.com/history/oldest-human-israel-101228.html) I’ve gotta say - that’d make a fantastic costume 😃 But yes. If we define ‘oldest historical person’ as just the oldest person, then the earliest bones we have available must count. I don’t think this is quite what I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of people we have historical accounts of, that we can verify aren’t just mythological portions of a nations history. > [@Donnerwetter](#): > > I’m guessing that the OP did not consider the intricacies of nomenclature in historical academia. Rather foolishly, I did not! ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/45 "2012-11-17T23:25:45Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Yeah, I think this is a fair way to approach it. After posting the thread I realised it was going to be quite an ambiguous task, which is quite regrettable. I don’t _think_ the person who is putting on the fancy dress party will mind if I turned up as Otzi. 😃 Let me tell you one thing: If you show up at your party dressed like this: [![](https://s18.postimg.cc/5ff2f2zw9/iceman.jpg) ](https://s18.postimg.cc/5ff2f2zw9/iceman.jpg) you’ll practically own the place. It’s a chick magnet, too! ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/46 "2012-11-18T10:03:34Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A simple way to disambiguate OP’s question is to ask for the earliest person whose name we know. Of course this leaves ambiguity – does a Pharaoh whose name was probably some unknown word meaning _scorpion_ count? > > The question has been discussed at SDMB at least twice that I remember. Gilgamesh is a candidate for first named historic person, and Shamhat, the temple harlot hired to seduce Gilgamesh’s rival Enkidu, was offered up as “first commoner of known name.” > > But not his name. He’s called Ötzi becasue he was found in the Ötztal Alps. Would you Adam and Eve it? The pharoah with the scorpion seal was the first that came to my mind too. Written history is a relatively modern thing. Oral history has been around a lot longer. There could be a group in the Amazon who still speak about someone who lived twenty thousand years ago. That said, there would almost certainly be a “Chinese Whispers” effect as the story passed on. And what about Biblical characters? Interesting question, but I suspect we’ll never get a definitive answer ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/47 "2012-11-18T10:21:25Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I remember learning in jr high school that written history began in Sumeria in the Fertile Crescent. > > So from the [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Sumer), listing the kings of Sumeria—“The earliest monarch whose historical existence has been independently attested through archaeological inscription is En-me-barage-si of Kish (ca. 2700–2600 BC)” > > how far back do the Egyptian Pharoahs go? Round about the 3000BC mark. A good site [here](http://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/kingslist.html) Got me wondering if China or Japan can predate this? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/48 "2012-11-18T10:24:31Z")
Even the historicity of Jesus has been disputed. The earliest written accounts which mention him were produced more than 20 years after his death (IIRC), the gospels even later. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/49 "2012-11-18T14:17:59Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > Got me wondering if China or Japan can predate this? In China writing only shows up in Shang era, so probably after 1500 BCE or so; anything before that is iffy/too hard to separate mythology from record. Japan-- absolutely not; historical record starts rather late, in 6th c CE or so. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/50 "2012-11-18T16:33:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I can verify that a man named Ötzi existed. True, that was probably not his name at the time he lived. But a name was not part of the question in the OP. Considering the requirements stated in the OP, Ötzi is more ancient and more verifiably existed than a Pharoah. In addition it is possible to create a very realistic costume to portray him. But as I said, even given your interpretation of the OP, Otzi isn’t remotely close to a correct answer. There are many far more ancient human remains. Even just considering mummified remains, the [Chinchorro mummies](http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/chinchorro/index.html) of Chile date back 7000 years, or around 1700 years older than Otzi. If you want the [oldest remains of a human,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hominina_fossils) the earliest member of our own genus _Homo_ goes back about 1.9 million years ago, and the earliest _Homo sapiens_ to 190,000 years ago. (I would rule out Lucy as not being really human, since she belongs to a different genus.) Whatever the answer is, it isn’t Otzi. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/51 "2012-11-18T16:45:01Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > But as I said, even given your interpretation of the OP, Otzi isn’t remotely close to a correct answer. There are many far more ancient human remains. Even just considering mummified remains, the [Chinchorro mummies](http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/chinchorro/index.html) of Chile date back 7000 years, or around 1700 years older than Otzi. > > If you want the [oldest remains of a human,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hominina_fossils) the earliest member of our own genus _Homo_ goes back about 1.9 million years ago, and the earliest _Homo sapiens_ to 190,000 years ago. (I would rule out Lucy as not being really human, since she belongs to a different genus.) > > Whatever the answer is, it isn’t Otzi. No argument there. The oldest named mummified remains I knew of was Otzi. He’s probably the most well known though and would make the best costume. Unless the OP wants to go dressed as a tooth. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/52 "2012-11-18T17:08:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > No argument there. The oldest named mummified remains I knew of was Otzi. In other words, you didn’t actually know the answer to the OP, yet you’ll continue to defend it even though it’s clearly wrong even by your own interpretation. > [@](#): > > He’s probably the most well known though and would make the best costume. The OP did not ask for the “best known” ancient person, or which would make the best costume. > [@](#): > > Unless the OP wants to go dressed as a tooth. Since he asked about historical people, that’s probably not what he had in mind. You’re the one who suggested that that bones should be considered to be historical people. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/53 "2012-11-18T17:13:57Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > In other words, you didn’t actually know the answer to the OP, yet you’ll continue to defend it even though it’s clearly wrong even by your own interpretation. > > The OP did not ask for the “best known” ancient person, or which would make the best costume. > > Since he asked about historical people, that’s probably not what he had in mind. You’re the one who suggested that that bones should be considered to be historical people. In other words you have nothing to offer in this thread and want to continue a pointless argument. The first response posited a pharoah as the oldest historical person and he wasn’t. Otzi is older. Either you are wrong about your initial interpretation or there are some mummies and bones older than Otzi. Take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/54 "2012-11-18T17:50:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In other words you have nothing to offer in this thread and want to continue a pointless argument. It’s hardly pointless as long as you keep trying to defend an erroneous answer. I don’t know why some people feel compelled to do this, but it’s not really best practice for GQ. > [@](#): > > The first response posited a pharoah as the oldest historical person and he wasn’t. Who was, then? The pharaohs are reasonable candidates, along with some Sumerian rulers. It depends on how much evidence you require to consider a named person to be mythological or historical. > [@](#): > > Otzi is older. 1. He is not a historical person, so the answer is wrong by my interpretation of the OP. 2. He is not as old as the oldest known mummies or the oldest human remains, so the answer is wrong by your interpretation of the OP. > [@](#): > > Either you are wrong about your initial interpretation or there are some mummies and bones older than Otzi. Take your pick. I can’t really figure out what your point is here. My “initial interpretation,” as that of others, is that the OP was asking for people whose names appear in history. Other posters have given possible answers to that question. As for your second clause, yes, there are mummies and bones older than Otzi, which makes that answer wrong. I’ll take my pick: regardless the way the OP is interpreted, Otzi is not a correct answer. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/55 "2012-11-18T18:40:51Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It’s hardly pointless as long as you keep trying to defend an erroneous answer. I don’t know why some people feel compelled to do this, but it’s not really best practice for GQ. You are wrong again. First the answer was provided in GD, not GQ. But that doesn’t matter. I haven’t defended my answer that Otzi is the oldest known person at all. I’ve defended my answer that he is an older known person than the pharoahs. > [@](#): > > Who was, then? The pharaohs are reasonable candidates, along with some Sumerian rulers. It depends on how much evidence you require to consider a named person to be mythological or historical. The pharoahs are reasonable answers, but wrong depending on the interpretation of the question. And Otzi is absolutely real while the pharoahs are questionable. > [@](#): > > 1. He is not a historical person, so the answer is wrong by my interpretation of the OP. You are using the creationist interpretation of history. I use the actual one, history is that which was, not that which somebody may have claimed was. > [@](#): > > 1. He is not as old as the oldest known mummies or the oldest human remains, so the answer is wrong by your interpretation of the OP. I never said he was. That is your specious argument to defend your interpretation. > [@](#): > > I can’t really figure out what your point is here. My “initial interpretation,” as that of others, is that the OP was asking for people whose names appear in history. Other posters have given possible answers to that question. As for your second clause, yes, there are mummies and bones older than Otzi, which makes that answer wrong. > > I’ll take my pick: regardless the way the OP is interpreted, Otzi is not a correct answer. I claimed Otzi was the oldest known person to actually exist, that I knew of. I also pointed out that there bones older than that. Something you admit to depending on which side of the argument you choose to use at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/56 "2012-11-18T19:19:11Z")
Since you say that you’re not defending the idea that Otzi is the oldest person known to have existed, then you’re acknowledging that your initial post was wrong. You posted that in response to the OP, and made no mention of the pharaohs. Otzi is not a correct response to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/57 "2012-11-18T19:26:47Z")
Seriously, knock it off with the Otzi crap. That’s done and irrelevant for the thread. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/58 "2012-11-18T19:29:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Since you say that you’re not defending the idea that Otzi is the oldest person known to have existed, then you’re acknowledging that your initial post was wrong. You posted that in response to the OP, and made no mention of the pharaohs. Otzi is not a correct response to the OP. My initial post cited Otzi as an example and clearly stated that I knew there were older examples. So no, my post was not wrong. It provided some of the information by which the correct answer could derived with further clarification of the terminology. You simply assumed that your one interpretation of the question was the correct one and then have been making the same pointless argument since. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/59 "2012-11-18T19:32:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > My initial post cited Otzi as an example and clearly stated that I knew there were older examples. So no, my post was not wrong. It provided some of the information by which the correct answer could derived with further clarification of the terminology. You simply assumed that your one interpretation of the question was the correct one and then have been making the same pointless argument since. Nah, it was just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260/60 "2012-11-18T19:41:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Nah, it was just wrong. Brilliant argument. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-oldest-person-we-know-in-history/641260.md?page=4)