# Who is the second best ice hockey player of all time? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** hockey-nhl\ **Created:** [December 30, 2024, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351 "2024-12-30T18:15:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2025, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/21 "2025-01-01T20:03:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > He’s in the Hall of Fame for a reason. Parent was the number one reason the Flyers went back to back. Absolutely. The Flyers depended on a goalie with his ability. His career was cut short by injury or he’d rank even higher. Goalies don’t get the same notice as scorers but ask any goalie who was the best and they’ll put Bernie very high on the list. Don’t forget Bobby Clarke, also in the Hall. And the greatest goon of all time, Dave ‘The Hammer’ Schultz as huge factors in the grand days of the Broad St. Bullies. ---
**Author:** ![gregorio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@gregorio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gregorio)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/22 "2025-01-02T15:04:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You wouldn’t expect someone to be best in the league in their rookie season . . . > (snip) > Looked at this way, someone could artificially look great, just because they waited to start playing at the top level until they were at their peak . . . 1989/90 “rookie” of the year Calgary Flames Sergie Makarov. Quick AI overview of his career up to 1990: - **Olympic medals** : Won gold medals in 1984 and 1988, and a silver medal in 1980. - **World Championship gold medals** : Won gold medals in 1978, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989, and 1990. - **Soviet Player of the Year** : Won the award three times. - **Soviet League All-Star Team** : Named to the team ten times. After his rookie of the year award in 89/90 the NHL changed the criteria to exclude any player over the age of 26 (wikipedia) ---
**Author:** ![Mark\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2025, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/23 "2025-01-02T16:25:00Z")
Think about Glenn Hall - 502 consecutive, complete games in goal. Or Howie Morenz - a star in the 20s and 30s - before a fatal crash into the boards at the Montreal Forum in 1937. He was one of the first in any sport to have his number retired. ---
**Author:** ![SwissMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@SwissMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwissMan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2025, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/24 "2025-01-02T17:38:11Z")
If you want to mention goalies, Ken Dryden would also definitely make the list. He had the goalie version of Orr’s career; he played only seven complete seasons, but put up astonishing numbers in all of them. He also retired young, although that was not because of injury but because he attained a law degree and went into practice (also eventually becoming a politician). ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2025, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/25 "2025-01-02T21:06:41Z")
Dryden is an interesting pick. The thing about Dryden being selected as “Greatest ever” is that it’s difficult to separate him from his team, which was the greatest team ever. The 18 guys in front of him were, in my opinion, absolutely and without doubt the greatest team ever assembled for that many seasons. The one stat only he has (almost all) control over is save percentage, and he was great at that too - he led the league three times. But other goalies have led the league three times in that too. Dominik Hasek led the league in save percentage six years in a row, but he didn’t win as many games as Dryden because he was stuck with the Buffalo Sabres, not the greatest team ever. (They gave him back to back MVP Awards, so apparently the writers saw he was dragging the Sabres to the playoffs.) I don’t know that one could really demonstrate that Dryden’s seven year run was better than the peaks of the careers of Patrick Roy, Hasek, or Johnny Bower. To illustrate my point, look at Dryden’s backups. For instance, in the four straight years they won the Cup, his backup was Michel Larocque. In 1975, the first of those years, Larocque started 22 games… and he only lost once. in 1976 he started 26 games and only lost twice, and actually had a better GAA than Dryden. In 1977 Larocque started 30 games and lost all of three times. They finally beat him seven times in 77-78, though of course now Larocque was up to 34 games. Larocque continued to play pretty well for the Habs, but in 1981 Larocque was traded to the Maple Leafs. He was only 29, hardly over the hill, and he immediately collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/26 "2025-04-06T22:20:43Z")
Alex is moving up: > **[Alex Ovechkin breaks Wayne Gretzky's NHL career goals record by scoring his...](https://apnews.com/article/ovechkin-gretzky-nhl-scoring-record-6f42df7b99d4693cc3f5bd6aff009af4)** > > Alex Ovechkin has broken Wayne Gretzky’s record for the most goals in NHL history by scoring the 895th of his career. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/27 "2025-04-06T22:57:42Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Alex is moving up: Yes, and is 1,200 points behind Gretzky still. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/28 "2025-04-06T23:09:06Z")
What’s even more interesting to me is that the record is mis-named. They keep calling it the NHL Career Goals record, but it’s really the NHL Career _Regular Season_ record. Since Gretzky had 122 playoff goals to Ovi’s current 72, technically, Wayne is still the NHL Overall Career Goals leader. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/29 "2025-04-06T23:16:17Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > What’s even more interesting to me is that the record is mis-named. They keep calling it the NHL Career Goals record, but it’s really the NHL Career _Regular Season_ record. While true, that’s not unique to this record, or even the NHL. Pretty much all of the records (including career “counting” records like most goals, most home runs, etc.) in the major U.S. professional sports are based on regular-season games only. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/30 "2025-04-06T23:16:32Z")
Are “goals” not the same thing as “points”? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/31 "2025-04-06T23:16:59Z")
Nope. In hockey, a player gets a point for scoring a goal, or being credited with an assist on another player’s goal. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/32 "2025-04-06T23:35:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are “goals” not the same thing as “points”? Points = Goals + Assists So Gretzky, in the same amount of games, helped create 1,200 more goals via assist than the runner up. And, yes, Gretzky still has more goals, too. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2025, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/33 "2025-04-06T23:51:50Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > While true, that’s not unique to this record, or even the NHL. Pretty much all of the records (including career “counting” records like most goals, most home runs, etc.) in the major U.S. professional sports are based on regular-season games only. Ignorance fought. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/34 "2025-04-07T00:02:26Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Points = Goals + Assists > > So Gretzky, in the same amount of games, helped create 1,200 more goals via assist than the runner up. It’s probably worth noting that Gretzky’s prime was in the 1980s, when the NHL was more offensive-oriented than it is now, and scoring was generally higher. That said, he was absolutely an assist machine: he led the NHL in assists for thirteen straight seasons, and accounts for eleven of the top thirteen (and all of the top eight) single-season assist totals. Also, he played on some excellent Oilers teams, which won five Stanley Cups in seven seasons: his teammate, Jari Kurri, in particular, scored 40+ goals in seven straight seasons, in no small part because Gretzky was feeding him. Edit: I had not realized that, as of today, Ovechkin has played in exactly the same number of games (1,487) as Gretzky. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/35 "2025-04-07T00:47:33Z")
Here’s anteresting graphic from a [Guardian article.](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/apr/06/alex-ovechkin-nhl-scoring-record) Gretzky plateaued earlier, while Ovechkin has been much more consistent as he ages. [![](https://i.imgur.com/V4Pp2H9.png) ](https://i.imgur.com/V4Pp2H9.png) ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/36 "2025-04-07T01:19:03Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > That said, he was absolutely an assist machine: he led the NHL in assists for thirteen straight seasons, and accounts for eleven of the top thirteen (and all of the top eight) single-season assist totals. He has the most points even if you delete ALL of his goals. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/37 "2025-04-07T16:45:32Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > What’s even more interesting to me is that the record is mis-named. They keep calling it the NHL Career Goals record, but it’s really the NHL Career _Regular Season_ record. Since Gretzky had 122 playoff goals to Ovi’s current 72, technically, Wayne is still the NHL Overall Career Goals leader. Essentially all North American sports do this. If you ask me how many career home runs Mickey Mantle has I’ll say 536. No one includes his 18 World Series home runs. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/38 "2025-04-07T16:58:39Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It’s probably worth noting that Gretzky’s prime was in the 1980s, when the NHL was more offensive-oriented than it is now, and scoring was generally higher. Even adjusting for that he’s the greatest scoring machine who ever lived, because he was further past his peers than anyone else. I mean, yeah, scoring was way higher in, say, 1985-86 than now. Last year the Avs and Leafs were the only teams to score over 300 goals - in 1986, most teams did, some exceeding 300 by a lot. But Gretzky had 163 assists. Second place was 93. The difference, 70, between Gretzky and second place (Mario Lemieux) would itself have been the sixth highest total in the league. The following year he slumped to 121 assists, 49 more than anyone else and substantially more assists than anyone else had points (and he led the league in goals.) That happened year after year for seven or eight years, where the gap between him and the next guy was itself a whole good player. No one before or since has dominated the NHL like that in terms of putting points on the board, even if you account for lowing scoring levels or shorter seasons. Even Gordie Howe, who for awhile was really dominant and you have to adjust for scoring and season length. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/39 "2025-04-07T17:01:00Z")
I agree. He changed the nature of hockey when he became an offensive defenseman with devastating effect. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2025, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351/40 "2025-04-07T18:03:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even adjusting for that he’s the greatest scoring machine who ever lived, because he was further past his peers than anyone else. He was better at hockey than Jordan was at basketball, though we have previously discussed if Gretsky is the best athlete at his individual sport and there are some cricket or rugby players that may surpass him. In terms of the big four North American sports, though, I think he is the best. Even with Djokovic, Nadal, and Federer, none achieved in tennis what Wayne did in hockey. Though when Federer first took off, I thought he might win 40 majors…(he didn’t) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-second-best-ice-hockey-player-of-all-time/1012351.md?page=3)