# Who is the USA's Best Ally? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492 "2012-02-11T02:39:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/141 "2012-02-25T03:44:05Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > You are correct, the Liberty wasn’t sunk, though not for lack of trying by IDF. Please. It was an unarmed reconnaissance ship. If the IDF really had wanted the Liberty to be sunk they would have sunk it. Friendly fire incidents happen. Do you really think that it’s only the US military which shoots up it’s own troops? For that matter, do you think that when the Israeli Air Force bombed one of their own armored columns just the day before do you think that wasn’t really a friendly-fire incident, but instead a deliberate strike to try and convince people the attack on the Liberty was an accident? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/142 "2012-02-25T04:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Why? BTW, I should have said “attacked”, not “sunk”. Thank you for the link. The USN inquiry was charged with considering USN actions and was not charged with determining cause of the attack. The volunteered statement of accidental cause was Johnson administration policy before the inquiry concluded. If the IDF couldn’t identify a Victory class ship after extensive pre-attack aerial reconnaissance, they were blind. The Egyptian vessel cited in comparison by Wikipedia was much smaller. Israel was prepared at the time to sink anybody’s ELINT ship. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/143 "2012-02-25T04:29:53Z")
At sea or in the air, scale is much harder to judge. Moreover you have yet to answer a central inaccuracy in your story: if they were prepared to sink the ship, why were they not prepared with anti-ship weaponry and instead armed with anti-infantry weaponry? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/144 "2012-02-25T04:42:47Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know who our best ally is, but our worst enemy is ourselves… Amen! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/145 "2012-02-25T04:45:56Z")
So… about that total lack of anti-ship weaponry? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/146 "2012-02-25T04:48:17Z")
And I’d give them a + for facing up to Anti-Semitic and Nazi history. That got diluted when they absorbed the East Germans, who had not. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/147 "2012-02-25T04:49:34Z")
I too admire the bravery and gumption of anti-ship weaponry and their long campaign against anti-semitism. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/148 "2012-02-25T05:06:26Z")
It was good for both of us. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/149 "2012-02-25T05:11:12Z")
I particularly enjoyed your insightful and detailed analysis of why a small, militarily inferior nation would attack a ship belonging to the most powerful nation on the planet, deliberately, and wouldn’t even remember to pack the right weapons. Your thoughtful and cogent analysis has convinced me that the non Conspiracy Theory is wrong and, in fact, our own government has been lying to us for years. I’m glad you shared your insights. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/150 "2012-02-25T05:18:50Z")
> [@](#): > > At sea or in the air, scale is much harder to judge. Moreover you have yet to answer a central inaccuracy in your story: if they were prepared to sink the ship, why were they not prepared with anti-ship weaponry and instead armed with anti-infantry weaponry? I just got to the bottom of the board and found your question. I presume it is a reply to me. The answer is that a torpedo did the most killing. Is that anti-ship enough for you? The crew received a unit citation for damage control. Otherwise, it would surely have sunk. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/151 "2012-02-25T05:25:24Z")
Your answer betrays ignorance about what actually transpired. The initial attack was conducted by airplanes armed with anti-infantry weaponry, not anti-ship weaponry. When the torpedo boats arrived, they held fired and initiated communication, fearing that misidentification had occurred and that the Liberty was not Egyptian. At that point one of the Liberty’s gunners opened fire on one of the torpedo boats, and their fire was returned. You have yet to do the bare minimum in creating a logically coherent narrative into which you can place your claims. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/152 "2012-02-25T05:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > I too admire the bravery and gumption of anti-ship weaponry and their long campaign against anti-semitism. Finnegan, I can’t parse this. Who are you replying to? It would help if you would reply directly to a post, so the thread map can put your reply with the post you are responding to. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/153 "2012-02-25T05:28:03Z")
Alternatively, you can look at which post is directly above mine. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/154 "2012-02-25T05:40:59Z")
OK, man, educate me. Other than MTBs, what anti-ship resources did Israel have in the area at the time? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/155 "2012-02-25T05:48:30Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > OK, man, educate me. Other than MTBs, what anti-ship resources did Israel have in the area at the time? With all due respect, you’re the one insisting that the US Navy is wrong and that the Israelis tried to sink the Liberty. Please demonstrate this and explain why you think the US Navy is wrong or lying. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/156 "2012-02-25T06:21:04Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > If the IDF couldn’t identify a Victory class ship after extensive pre-attack aerial reconnaissance, they were blind. The Egyptian vessel cited in comparison by Wikipedia was much smaller. Israel was prepared at the time to sink anybody’s ELINT ship. Going down this road isn’t going to give you any traction and strictly speaking, it wasn’t friendly fire, it was a mistaken attack. To get the Israel being prepared to attack anyone’s ELINT ships nonsense out of the way, what other ELINT assets of which other nations did they go after? Regarding ship size and identification, there is a very long history of gross misidentification of ships by aircraft. During the battle of Coral Sea the US launched a full strike against the 11,000 ton light carrier _Shoho’s_ task force which had been identified as the main body of IJN. The carriers _Zuikaku_ and _Shokaku_ which formed the actual main body of the IJN each displaced 30,000 tons. The Japanese didn’t fare any better on their first strike; they sent a full strike to attack the oiler _Neosho_ and the destroyer _Sims_ which were misidentified as a battleship and a carrier. The _Sims_ displaced 2,000 tons, US battleships started at about 30,000 tons. The easiest place that all the Israel-_Liberty_ attack conspiracies fall apart fall apart is simply : why? Without putting on a tinfoil hat, why would Israel possibly deliberately attack the _Liberty_? What did it gain them? > [@Candyman74](#): > > If the argument is military cooperation, then let’s look at the most recent war, Iraq. If you could point out Canada’s participation in this chart, I’d be grateful. Personally I’m unwilling to dock the Canadians points in this little exercise for choosing not to join the US in our little opportunistic adventure in Iraq. Particularly in consideration of the 158 Canadians who have lost their lives in Afghanistan thus far. Using fun charts and [fractions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War), > [@](#): > > Canada has suffered the third-highest absolute number of deaths of any nation among the foreign military participants, and the highest casualties per capita of all coalition members since the beginning of the war. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/157 "2012-02-25T06:39:26Z")
See page 5 of the reference you supplied. The Inquiry passes along the Israeli position without endorsement. Other than internal matters, the only unequivocal statement is that the attack was unprovoked. This inquiry was in no position to get to the bottom of the matter, and did not do so. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/158 "2012-02-25T06:47:19Z")
By the way, it wouldn’t just be the US Navy which was wrong. There were multiple investigations, including one by the [CIA](http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0001359216/DOC_0001359216.pdf). That they were all in on a coverup strains credulity. That there was only one investigation, and that it was just a ‘rubber stamp’, is fictional to the point that it destroys the credibility of the person claiming it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/159 "2012-02-25T06:59:54Z")
Robinson, Not to be rude, but you’re making a fairly controversial claim and insisting that several government agencies covered up a deliberate attack on a US Navy vessel and you’re relying on Wikipedia? Haven’t you heard of James Ennes? ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492/160 "2012-02-25T08:00:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Haven’t you heard of James Ennes? Not before now. What’s your take on him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-the-usas-best-ally/612492.md?page=7)