# Who is to blame for the looting of the looting of Baghdad's Museum of Antiquities? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879 "2003-04-15T14:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/1 "2003-04-15T14:38:00Z")
This [Boston Globe editorial](http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/105/editorials/Crimes_against_history+.shtml) blames the Bush Administration. > [@](#): > > **Crimes against history** > > IN THE CHAOS following the fall of Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship, unruly mobs were allowed to commit two disparate kinds of crime… At the same time, the cultural patrimony not only of Iraq but of civilization itself was violated when rampaging mobs stole thousands of irreplaceable artistic and archaeological treasures from Baghdad’s National Museum of Antiquities. Such crimes should have been prevented or at least halted in the early stages by US troops. As an occupying power, the United States has an obligation under the Geneva Convention’s laws of war to ensure public order and protect the civilian population… > > And the awful truth is that the US government bears a shameful responsibility for not preventing this crime against history. Donald Rumsfeld rejected this POV. He said on _Meet the Press_ > [@](#): > > We didn’t allow it. It happened… We don’t allow bad things to happen. Bad things happen in life, and people do loot. But, a blog called the [Village Idiot](http://surroundedbyem.blogspot.com/) offered two other thoughts: – Maybe the looting was done by Ba’ath officials. – The museum staff should have taken steps to protect the antiquities. > [@](#): > > The Museum, full of priceless antiquities, is located in a country run by a ruthless tyrant who has treated the country and its treasures as his personal playthings. It has been closed to the public for years. War has been threatened for months, and the tyrant knows that the city will be bombed, so does the museum staff. Rumors abound that the tyrant, his henchmen and their families are stashing treasure in foreign countries against the possibility of flight. When the army of liberation arrives, the Museum is empty, its displays and vaults ransacked. The staff blames an anonymous mob of civilians. > > Motive, Means, Opportunity; isn’t that what Miss Marple would wonder about? The tyrant would certainly have them in spades. He would have sent some lackeys over to pick up things like the gold harp, which could easily pay for a favored mistress’ exile. But, wouldn’t the staff have pointed the finger at him, hoping to curry favor with the new boss? Maybe the tyrant didn’t take everything. He probably had no interest in clay cylinder seals. Tyrants are notoriously uninterested in the evolution of writing and the other elements of culture. > > What about the staff of the Museum? When the allied armies approached Germany at the end of the Second World War and allied air forces stepped up their bombing attacks, the regime and the museum staffs packed up the contents of the country’s museums and stored them in mine shafts in the mountains. Why didn’t the staff of the Iraqi Museum do something like that? The Museum had “vaults with huge steel doors guarding storage chambers that descend floor after floor into unlighted darkness.” Why weren’t the artifacts sealed in those vaults to protect against the bombing attack that everyone knew was coming? Were the vaults not equipped with bank vault type locks? Knowing what little I do about the tyrant, I would be surprised if he had stinted on that. But even if there were no locks on those vaults, any welder from a neighborhood body shop should be able to seal those doors to the point where looters could not open them without high explosives. Why were the exterior doors and windows of the Museum not barred? So, who is to blame? The US, the Ba’ath Party or the Museum staff? One might also blame the governments of France, Canada, Russia, and Germany. Had they participated in the war, there would have been more resources available to protect the priceless antiques. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/2 "2003-04-15T15:48:59Z")
Let me take a wild stab at this. Now this is only my own opinion now, and it seems like I am in a minority of one, but still- could it be- should it be- the LOOTERS THEMSELVES? :rolleyes: Naah, couldn’t be. Dudes aren’t responsible for their own actions. You did see that shot on CNN of the US Marines forcing Iraqi’s at gunpoint to loot the museum, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Darkrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3be4f8/32.png) [@Darkrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkrabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/3 "2003-04-15T15:58:14Z")
**So, who is to blame? The US, the Ba’ath Party or the Museum staff?** Umm … maybe _the looters_ are to blame? ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/4 "2003-04-15T16:04:26Z")
I believe the geneva convention says something about an invading power maintaining civil order and property. If the US was incapable of this they should not have attempted to take the city. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/5 "2003-04-15T16:05:23Z")
Were the looters looted after they did the looting? Sorry, Dec, I couldn’t resist. Actually, though, this has been played out so much over on the other thread, I don’t think there’s much more to add. I think it was firmly established the the USA is responsible for every bad thing that happens on earth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/6 "2003-04-15T16:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMemeWarrior \* > \*\*I believe the geneva convention says something about an invading power maintaining civil order and property. If the US was incapable of this they should not have attempted to take the city. \*\* Sure- after the fighting stops, or there is a surrender. But while your asses are still being shot at, that’s your first priority. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/7 "2003-04-15T16:22:33Z")
As I said on the other thread, if the regime had surrendered none of this would have happened. In fact, the regime still hasn’t surrendered. One diplomat saying “the game is over,” followed by a battle in Tikrit, is no surrender instrument. Everyone who thought the rules of war were stupid when we were talking about US POWs and fake surrenders have jumped right back on the rules of war bandwagon, I see. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/8 "2003-04-15T16:34:07Z")
**DrDeth** The US found enough time to secure the oil ministry. Curiously nothing else has been protected form the looters though. **Beagle** I for one never said the rules of war were stupid. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/9 "2003-04-15T16:43:22Z")
Oil Ministry is a Military Target. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/10 "2003-04-15T16:48:36Z")
From [The New Republic](http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=iraq&s=diary041403): > [@](#): > > One friend told me that the looting of the National Museum–something that cut deeply into me–was the work of newly deposed Baathist officials, who had been selling off our patrimony as they saw their days were numbered. As the regime fell, these (ex-)Baathists went back for one last swindle, and took with them treasures that dated back 9,000 years, to the Sumerians and the Babylonians. The above story is secondhand and I don’t know how much stock to put into it, but I don’t think that it’s farfetched to believe that some members of the Ba’ath party who felt that the game was up would do something like this. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/11 "2003-04-15T16:59:02Z")
How was the oil ministry a military target? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/12 "2003-04-15T17:07:24Z")
Same way the Reichstag was, or the Hitler bunker. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/13 "2003-04-15T17:07:40Z")
Hmm. Dan Quayle’s stock is looking up. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/14 "2003-04-15T17:10:57Z")
That might explain why the oil ministry was originally seized not why it continues to be guarded, while the museum and hospitals were looted. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/15 "2003-04-15T17:45:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Beagle I for one never said the rules of war were stupid. My bad. I wasn’t referring to posters so much as politics generally. Every political faction has those areas where they are hypocritical. The anti-war faction is particularly vulnerable to criticism for arguing that civil disobedience should be shut down with troops in a newly liberated nation. OK, but what about San Francisco? ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/16 "2003-04-15T18:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheMemeWarrior \* > \*\*That might explain why the oil ministry was originally seized not why it continues to be guarded, while the museum and hospitals were looted. \*\* Is there any credible evidence that this is true? What would the oil ministry contain that would make it indispensable? ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/17 "2003-04-15T18:11:01Z")
Looting is not civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/18 "2003-04-15T18:14:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*Oil Ministry is a Military Target. \*\* …besides, how da eck do you loot Oil ? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/19 "2003-04-15T18:18:49Z")
The looters, obviously. However, I don’t think it’s too much to say that there should have been security measures provided for this museum. D’uh. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879/20 "2003-04-15T18:34:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > \*\*Looting is not civil disobedience. \*\* It’s a fine line. OTOH, I agree one hundred percent. Next time something like [this mess](http://www.aclunc.org/aclunews/news197/rodneyde.html) happens, I’ll be sure to forget about all the liberal claptrap that we both believe in and lobby the government to surround the civil disobedience cum looters with tanks and APCs. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-to-blame-for-the-looting-of-the-looting-of-baghdads-museum-of-antiquities/168879.md?page=2)