# Who Is?Was The "Mhadi"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 22, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645 "2006-02-22T16:45:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/1 "2006-02-22T16:45:50Z")
In Shia Islam, there is great importance attached to the mysterious “12th Imam”-this the guy who restores Islam and peace to the world. Anyway-that mosque that was just blown up in Iraq-is that where the Mhadi is supposed to come fourth from? I recall that the British fough a war against Shia fanatics in the Sudan (in the 1880’s-in which General “Chinese” Gordon was killed). So: when does this guy appear? is he something like the (Christian) idea of the “Anti-Christ”-whose appearance heralds the end of the world? Plus-how long before the Shia retaliate? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/2 "2006-02-22T16:53:24Z")
The Mahdi is the Muslim version of the messiah. He a descendent of Muhammed who comes to maturity/reveals himself at some time when the Muslim world is under attack and repressed, and he’ll defeat the oppressors, bring peace and justice to the world, and create a true Muslim state in Arabia. At that point, Jesus will show up too, and they’ll pray together in Mecca. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/3 "2006-02-22T16:54:36Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > In Shia Islam, there is great importance attached to the mysterious “12th Imam”-this the guy who restores Islam and peace to the world. Anyway-that mosque that was just blown up in Iraq-is that where the Mhadi is supposed to come fourth from? I recall that the British fough a war against Shia fanatics in the Sudan (in the 1880’s-in which General “Chinese” Gordon was killed). So: when does this guy appear? is he something like the (Christian) idea of the “Anti-Christ”-whose appearance heralds the end of the world? > Plus-how long before the Shia retaliate? [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi) ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/4 "2006-02-22T17:23:10Z")
I know this isn’t the answer you’re looking for, but I can’t get it out of my mind that there’s an older movie (50’s-70’s best guess) where somebody like Laurence Olivier or Alec Guinness plays a Middle Eastern or Arab potentate referred to as “the Mahdi” (or Mhadi) as though the term was on par with Sultan or Emir. I can’t even remember the movie but it was one of those desert epics along the lines of _Lawrence of Arabia_ which I know was not it, because I just watched it again recently. ---
**Author:** ![Zeldar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b77776/32.png) [@Zeldar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeldar)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/5 "2006-02-22T17:26:37Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > I know this isn’t the answer you’re looking for, but I can’t get it out of my mind that there’s an older movie (50’s-70’s best guess) where somebody like Laurence Olivier or Alec Guinness plays a Middle Eastern or Arab potentate referred to as “the Mahdi” (or Mhadi) as though the term was on par with Sultan or Emir. I can’t even remember the movie but it was one of those desert epics along the lines of _Lawrence of Arabia_ which I know was not it, because I just watched it again recently. Found it. [Khartoum](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/). Olivier. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/6 "2006-02-22T17:52:56Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > The Mahdi is the Muslim version of the messiah. He a descendent of Muhammed who comes to maturity/reveals himself at some time when the Muslim world is under attack and repressed, and he’ll defeat the oppressors, bring peace and justice to the world, and create a true Muslim state in Arabia. At that point, Jesus will show up too, and they’ll pray together in Mecca. I will point out that the belief of the Mahdi is only prevelant amongst one sect of Shia Muslims, but it is the largest sect of Shia Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/7 "2006-02-22T17:59:37Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Found it. [Khartoum](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/). Olivier. That movie’s about the rebellion in Sudan. Basically, in Sudan in the 1880s, a man named Muhammed Ahmed declared himself the Mahdi, and led a revolt against the Egyptians and British, who were together occupying Sudan. In 1884, the Mahdi’s army beseiged Khartoum. The British-Egyptian army in Khartoum was led by the famous Britsh general (and governor of the Sudan), Sir George “Chinese” Gordon. Gordon defended the city while under siege, but then, just two days before a relief force of British troops got there, the city fell by treachery, and Gordon was killed by the Mahdi’s army. Gordon had been a flamboyant eccentric, and a bit of a celebrity before his death, both for his accomplishments and his eccentricity, and after he died, he was lionized as a hero in Britain, and the story of the siege of Khartoum became a major event. The movie you’re referencing is a drama about the siege of Khartoum, with Charlton Heston as General Gordon, and Sir Lawrence Olivier as the Mahdi. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/8 "2006-02-22T18:18:51Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > I will point out that the belief of the Mahdi is only prevelant amongst one sect of Shia Muslims, but it is the largest sect of Shia Muslims. Sorry, I should have specified that it was a Twelver Shi’ite belief. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/9 "2006-02-22T18:36:43Z")
> [@Zeldar](#): > > Found it. [Khartoum](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060588/). Olivier. _The Four Feathers_ ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Four\_Feathers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Four_Feathers)) is about the same war. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/10 "2006-02-22T18:38:06Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Sorry, I should have specified that it was a Twelver Shi’ite belief. But the “Mahdi” Muhammad Ahmad ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad\_Ahmad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad)) was a Sufi. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/11 "2006-02-22T18:44:03Z")
Regarding the “army of the Mahdi” in contemporary Iraq, see this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261027](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=261027) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/12 "2006-02-22T18:55:02Z")
BTW, the idea of the Mahdi or “Hidden Imam” ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden\_Imam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Imam)) remains relevant in Iranian politics today. From [http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=2509:](http://www.asharqalawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=2509:) > [@](#): > > But class warfare is not the only reason why rich mullahs hate Ahmadinejad. They also hate him because he is reviving the original revolutionary discourse of Khomeinism without any “ taqiyah” (dissimulation). > > The concepts and ideas that Rafsanjani and Khatami treated as mere metaphors are being redefined as literal truths under Ahmadinejad. > > One key concept is that of the Hidden Imam, the awaited Mahdi of the Twelver Shi’ites. To Rafsanjani and Khatami this is no more than an escathalogical idea with little immediate relevance to the actual life of society. Ahmadinejad, however, has restored the concept of the Hidden Imam as the central truth of Iran’s political, cultural, economic and social life. He has written and signed a pact with the Hidden Imam and has asked all officials to do so, a move that, taken to its logical conclusion, dispenses with the need for any mullahs including the“ Supreme Guide”. Thus the government of the Islamic Republic becomes answerable to the Hidden Imam and not to the “ Supreme Guide” or the Iranian electorate. > > This reinterpretation of Twelver Shi’ism excludes not only any form of rule by the mullahs but also any form of electoral democracy. In this way Ahmadinejad hopes to outflank the two principal political forces that have been fighting for power in Iran since the middle of the 19 th century. His message is: neither mullahrchy, nor democracy. The above is cited/discussed in this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354548&highlight=iran](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=354548&highlight=iran) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/13 "2006-02-22T19:51:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But the “Mahdi” Muhammad Ahmad ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad\_Ahmad](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ahmad)) was a Sufi. Yes, he was. I’m not entirely sure if he was Sunni or Shi’ite, though, even though, if he was Sudanese, he was probably a Sunni. But there is a Sunni concept of the Mahdi, just not that he’s the twelfth iman, like the Twelvers Shia believe. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/14 "2006-02-22T20:05:47Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Yes, he was. I’m not entirely sure if he was Sunni or Shi’ite, though, even though, if he was Sudanese, he was probably a Sunni. Aren’t the Sufi a third sect, neither Sunni nor Shi’ite? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/15 "2006-02-22T20:21:17Z")
I’ve got it! Michael jackson is the Mahdhi! Think aboutit.he fulfils the prophecy…we can use him to pacify the Shia! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/16 "2006-02-22T21:09:31Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I’ve got it! Michael jackson is the Mahdhi! Think aboutit.he fulfils the prophecy…we can use him to pacify the Shia! Blasphemer! The true Mahdi is Paul Atreides! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/17 "2006-02-22T21:18:16Z")
Not exactly. Sufism is a kind of Muslim religious order/mystic tradition, not a branch of Islam the way that Sunni or Shia are, and there are both Sunni and Shia Sufi brotherhoods. I don’t know if that makes sense. Basically, Sufis are Muslims who get together under a teacher to try to develop some mystical understanding of God beyond that of the average Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/18 "2006-02-22T21:23:40Z")
BTW, the founder of the Fatimid dynasty of caliphs, who were Shi’ites and ruled North Africa from 910 to 1171, also called himself the “Mahdi.” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubayd\_Allah\_al-Mahdi\_Billah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubayd_Allah_al-Mahdi_Billah) ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2006, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/19 "2006-02-22T22:30:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, the founder of the Fatimid dynasty of caliphs, who were Shi’ites and ruled North Africa from 910 to 1171, also called himself the “Mahdi.” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubayd\_Allah\_al-Mahdi\_Billah](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubayd_Allah_al-Mahdi_Billah) However, the branch of Shias that he belonged to, the Ismailis, had/have no doctrine of a Madhi in the Twelver sense of the term. In this sense, I believe Madhi was used as a title denoting that he had brought the Ismailis out of hiding, and made it safe for them to practice their branch of the faith openly, without fear of reprisal. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645/20 "2006-02-23T00:34:30Z")
The Mahdi is a concept common to the eschatology of both Sunnism and Shi’ism. It’s just that, as noted, it’s not a concept common to ALL Sunnis and Shi’a :). For instance as **Angua** noted, Ithna’ashari and Isma’ili Shi’a have somewhat different perceptions of what or who the Mahdi might be. Meanwhile the Zaydi Shi’a dismiss the concept entirely. Similarily some Sunni believe in the idea of a Mahdi, some don’t. The issue arises because the Mahdi isn’t an idea rooted in the Qur’an ( except perhaps by inference, which can be a dicey proposition to argue ), but rather in hadith that are subject to some divergence in interpretation and acceptance. In addition to the above mentioned figures ( and the Mahdi of the Sudan was indeed Sunni, at least nominally, and interestingly he banned Sufi orders including the one he was formerly affiliated with once he gained power ), others who have claimed the title was the founder of the al-Muwahiddun ( Almohades ) in North Africa ( nominally Sunni ) and ( disputedly ) the Bab ( at least initially Shi’a, though of course the seperate Baha’i faith would eventually trace to his teachings ). - Tamerlane [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-is-was-the-mhadi/345645.md?page=2)