# Who killed Cleopatra? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2021, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377 "2021-08-10T11:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/1 "2021-08-10T11:37:17Z")
Well some of the more obvious choices are: 1. Herself. With a snake. Which has been doubted since antiquity. Getting a big ass cobra past the guards is going to be problematic and it is not a reliable way to die. 2. Herself with a hairpin. Which both Strabo and Plutarch state was the more likely method. 3. Octavian. Either directly or by a “security lapse” (hence the curiously unpunished guards). I would go for door number 3 myself, Octavian was **not** known for his clemancy, but he had earlier tried to stop her from starving herself. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/2 "2021-08-10T11:46:19Z")
Cute. My initial response “wasn’t it an asp?” is stifled by Wikipedia’s assurance that the correct rendering isn’t the European Asp but the Egyptian Cobra, which averages 1.4 meters – big-ass, indeed… There are other possibilities, though, besides the ones you list. > [@](#): > > According to [Plutarch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch), [Cleopatra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra) tested various deadly poisons on condemned people and concluded that the bite of the asp (from aspis—Egyptian cobra, not [European asp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_asp)) was the least terrible way to die; the venom brought sleepiness and heaviness without spasms of pain. The asp is perhaps most famous for its alleged role in Cleopatra’s suicide after [Mark Antony](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Antony) (her husband) killed himself by falling on his sword due to a false report of Cleopatra killing herself.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp_(reptile)#cite_note-Smithsonian-6) Some believe it to have been a [horned viper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerastes_cerastes),[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp_(reptile)#cite_note-Schneemann2004-3)[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp_(reptile)#cite_note-Kinghorn1994-7) though in 2010, German historian Christoph Schaefer and [toxicologist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxicology) Dietrich Mebs, after extensive study into the event, came to the conclusion that rather than enticing a venomous animal to bite her, Cleopatra actually used a mixture of [hemlock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conium_maculatum), [wolfsbane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aconitum) and [opium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium) to end her life.[[8]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp_(reptile)#cite_note-8) > **[Asp (snake)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asp_(reptile))** > > "Asp" is the modern anglicisation of the word "aspis", which in antiquity referred to any one of several venomous snake species found in the Nile region. The specific epithet, aspis, is a Greek word that means "viper". It is believed that aspis referred to what is now known as the Egyptian cobra. > Throughout dynastic and Roman Egypt, the asp was a symbol of royalty. Moreover, in both Egypt and Greece, its potent venom made it useful as a means of execution for criminals who were thought deserving... ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/3 "2021-08-10T12:30:59Z")
[The suicide of Cleopatra](https://imgur.com/L3J5Y7r) The real truth got garbled over time. Anyway, here’s an interesting [medical opinion on Cleo’s death](http://www.webmedcentral.com/wmcpdf/Article_WMC00502.pdf). The author believes that " the facts clearly point to murder rather than suicide- murder at the hands of Octavian and his men for political purposes." ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/4 "2021-08-10T12:32:13Z")
To be fair, Octavian has been a suspect for _**(checks notes)**_ …2051 years. ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/5 "2021-08-10T13:57:27Z")
I’m curious to know why Octavian should have killed Cleopatra. She would surely have served a greater purpose by walking in chains preceding Octavian’s chariot at the subsequent Triumph celebrating his recent victories. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/6 "2021-08-10T15:14:39Z")
> [@Chez\_Guevara](#): > > I’m curious to know why Octavian should have killed Cleopatra. In that era it was considered unseemly for women to be paraded in Triumphs, when Pompey had one of Mithrandes wives paraded he was censured. Plus it wasn’t unknown for the crowd to show sympathy for the captive, that happened with Cleopatras sister Arisnoe, whose dignity and composure when she was displayed as Ceasers captive, forcing old Julius to keep her alive. What Octavian intended to do has never been totally proved one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/7 "2021-08-10T15:27:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In that era it was considered unseemly for women to be paraded in Triumphs, when Pompey had one of Mithrandes wives paraded he was censured. Plus it wasn’t unknown for the crowd to show sympathy for the captive, that happened with Cleopatras sister Arisnoe, whose dignity and composure when she was displayed as Ceasers captive, forcing old Julius to keep her alive. > What Octavian intended to do has never been totally proved one way or the other. That might be true, but that doesn’t mean having her executed would be something considered shameful that would need to be kept quiet. Additionally given the fact he’d spend the last few years ensuring, in the eyes of romans, she was cast as an evil eastern temptress who was corrupting the good morals of upstanding manly Romans (and emphasizing the fact he was fighting this evil eastern Queen, not starting a civil war with Mark Anthony, despite appearances to the contrary), its quite possible the usual conventions about women in triumphs wouldn’t apply. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/8 "2021-08-10T15:41:59Z")
Cleopatra had gotten out of tight situations before. Octavian was smart enough and practical enough not to give her another chance, no matter how slim. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/9 "2021-08-10T15:54:14Z")
Might he have been worried about making her a martyr? If he kills her, then her followers might be motivated to more violence. If she kills herself, though, then they can’t be mad at him about that. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/10 "2021-08-10T16:14:46Z")
I think that’s a pretty anachronistic way of thinking. I can’t think of any contemporary examples of a dead leader being held up as a martyr for a political movement (the [obvious example](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus) is a bit later, and not really comparable). Plus of course, whatever Octavian’s propaganda may have said it was primarily Mark Anthony and his Roman troops he was fighting, and Cleopatra and her Egyptian forces were just an ally. He might have said differently to the folks back home, but he was under no illusions about it. Cleopatra was a capable leader with a strong following but that strong following wasn’t going to give Octavian any sleepless nights militarily, and her followers were clearly going to see which way the wind was blowing after her death and get in the program with the Roman military juggernaut. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/11 "2021-08-10T16:25:18Z")
If Cleopatra could get herself in or out of the palace (rolled up in a carpet) then presumably she could get her asp in whenever she needed to. The practice of eliminating claimants to a throne, trading a short bit of bad publicity and upset for decades of less threat, is a time honored tradition. (See Richard III) The bad publicity is lessened if the death is not proclaimed as an execution. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/12 "2021-08-10T16:31:08Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I can’t think of any contemporary examples of a dead leader being held up as a martyr for a political movement [_Et tu_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#Aftermath_of_the_assassination), Griffinus? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/13 "2021-08-10T16:35:02Z")
Also, just a note that a baby cobra is just as deadly as a full-sized one. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/14 "2021-08-10T17:32:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [_Et tu_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#Aftermath_of_the_assassination), Griffinus? I’d argue that is just old-fashioned succession crisis to work out who would succeed him (and control his legions and piles of cash) with the complication of it happening in what was still officially a republic. Not a bunch of hard core Cesar lovers pushing on with his political movement after his martyrdom. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/15 "2021-08-10T17:44:13Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > The practice of eliminating claimants to a throne, trading a short bit of bad publicity and upset for decades of less threat, is a time honored tradition. Yeah but this was absolutely not disposing a rival claimant to the throne (at least Octavian absolutely wanted everyone to believe it wasn’t.) It was (according to Octavian’s PR dept) disposing of a defeated much-hated evil eastern queen by a rugged hard-fighting republican Roman general. There is no reason at all for him to not announce her execution if he had her killed. > [@md-2000](#): > > , is a time honored tradition. (See Richard III) I was actually just thinking this is a similar case to the Richard III and the princes in the tower. Yes, we will never know for sure, but the obvious outcome is by far the most likely for me (though its somewhat reversed in both cases). If the princes were still alive at the end of Richard III’s reign, or they died of natural causes, there is absolutely no reason for Richard III not to shout it from the rooftops given how bad it would look in contemporary late medival society for him not to, so the fact he didn’t (combined with heaps of means motive and opportunity) means IMO he most likely killed them. Conversely in the late (soon to be post) republic Octavian’s roman contemporaries would have been fine with him having Cleopatra executed, so that fact he didn’t announce that probably means it didn’t happen, and the suicide story is the one that makes most sense. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/16 "2021-08-10T17:58:21Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Yeah but this was absolutely not disposing a rival claimant to the throne (at least Octavian absolutely wanted everyone to believe it wasn’t.) The point was always to dispose of the person with the most valid claim to be leader of Egypt, so as to limit the ability of her to escape and rally troops to fight the invader, or of someone else to rally troops on her behalf in her name. Regardless of who was emperor, she still had a claim to Egypt. Until she couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/17 "2021-08-10T18:20:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > That might be true, but that doesn’t mean having her executed would be something considered shameful that would need to be kept quiet. A man whose position was very precarious and who fully intended to make Egypt his personal fiefdom, something which was not going to go down well with the Senate, more than half of which supported Antony .He had already gotten into plenty of bother over his habit of killing people wantonly. If anything, he spent a lot of the time post 30BC shouting to all and sundry that he _hadn’t_ killed Cleopatra. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/18 "2021-08-10T18:21:23Z")
[https://i.imgur.com/gJAIh7W.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/gJAIh7W.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/19 "2021-08-10T18:25:41Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Additionally given the fact he’d spend the last few years ensuring, in the eyes of romans, she was cast as an evil eastern temptress who was corrupting the good morals of upstanding manly Romans (and emphasizing the fact he was fighting this evil eastern Queen, not starting a civil war with Mark Anthony, despite appearances to the contrary), its quite possible the usual conventions about women in triumphs wouldn’t apply. So? He also had been an ally of Ciceros and had opposed Antony, who had accused him of being Ceasers well errr, bitch. Then when he needed to, he turned around, agreed to accept Antony as a brother, and acquiesced to Cicero’s killing. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/20 "2021-08-10T18:33:35Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > So? He also had been an ally of Ciceros and had opposed Antony, who had accused him of being Ceasers well errr, bitch. Then when he needed to, he turned around, agreed to accept Antony as a brother, and acquiesced to Cicero’s killing. Yeah none of which he wanted anyone to dwell on, he would much rather everyone forget all that (and that the war he just won, was _actually_ against his former ally Mark Anthony and his roman supporters). That (and all the romans he had killed in the process) was absolutely something his contempararies would be upset about. Much better to focus on this foreign queen, and her foreign army, he had just victoriously fought a war against. And the romans did not get upset about their generals executing the defeated leaders of a vanquished foreign army, they considered it completely above board and par for the course. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377.md?page=2)