# Who killed Cleopatra? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2021, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377 "2021-08-10T11:37:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/21 "2021-08-10T19:44:33Z")
I beat you to that in my first post in the thread, but only posted a link to that one. Didn’t figure it would be work-safe here. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/22 "2021-08-10T19:47:53Z")
He also didn’t want anyone to dwell on the fact that he was turning Egypt into his own personal fiefdom. The good Republican way have been to follow Senate direction in the disposal and management of a new territory, and that invariably meant either turning it into a province with a Governor appointed by the Senate or a appoint a client ruler. He instead, appointed one of his own men as Prefect and started being worshipped a Pharaoh. It took 3 years after the conquest for the First Settlement to be made, and his direct control of Egypt,Gaul and Syria to be confirmed and he had to make quite a few compromises for that. One of his arguments was that those provinces were under threat, and in case of the later two it was accurate, but the only threat in Egypt was to his income supply. If he had openly killed Cleopatra, he very well might have been unable to do what he did. Hell, he had to provide for her younger children anyway and find kingdoms for them to rule. Which is why my own view is that he encouraged her suicide rather than killed her outright. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/23 "2021-08-11T03:46:00Z")
Actually, aren’t venomous snakes usually even more potent when they’re babies? I swear I’ve heard that before. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/24 "2021-08-11T05:05:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Not a bunch of hard core Cesar lovers pushing on with his political movement after his martyrdom. Well, before Caesar: Roman Republic. After Caesar - the _ **Julio** _-Claudian dynasty. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/25 "2021-08-11T05:08:51Z")
Sounds like a myth to me. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/26 "2021-08-11T05:21:10Z")
Ah, A follower of Tacitus are we? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bobsmom101](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobsmom101/32/2867_2.png) [@bobsmom101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobsmom101)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/27 "2021-08-11T21:05:42Z")
The venom may be more potent, but the amount delivered is **much** smaller. I learned that at a Sierra Club lecture on rattlesnakes given by a snake expert. He said he’d rather be bitten by a baby one any day. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/28 "2021-08-11T21:51:36Z")
It’s scorpions where the smaller ones are more dangerous. Although that might be because the small ones are harder to see, and thus easier to step on. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/29 "2021-08-11T21:55:00Z")
> [@bobsmom101](#): > > The venom may be more potent, but the amount delivered is **much** smaller. > > I learned that at a Sierra Club lecture on rattlesnakes given by a snake expert. He said he’d rather be bitten by a baby one any day. I remember being told that baby snakes were more dangerous because they did not regulate their discharge, so the amount delivered was greater because they empty all of their … venom pouch? … in a single bite. I have no idea if that is true and I’ve never had cause to learn. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/30 "2021-08-11T22:02:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, before Caesar: Roman Republic. After Caesar - the _ **Julio** _ -Claudian dynasty. The chronology was: Julius Caesar was assassinated, Octavian, Antony, and Lepidus form an alliance (the Second Triumvirate) to rule Rome, Octavian and Antony have a falling-out (with Lepidus relegated to the sidelines), and Cleopatra gets involved (and ultimately killed) in the resulting civil war. > [@mbh](#): > > It’s scorpions where the smaller ones are more dangerous. > > Although that might be because the small ones are harder to see, and thus easier to step on. What I’ve read suggests that it’s because little scorpions rely on venom to subdue their prey while bigger scorpions can physically crush prey in their claws. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/31 "2021-08-11T22:15:09Z")
Well, I’ll take their word for it. I’m not about to go and conduct an experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/32 "2021-08-12T00:19:23Z")
No guts, no glory, Guin! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/33 "2021-08-12T05:21:30Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > I remember being told that baby snakes were more dangerous because they did not regulate their discharge, so the amount delivered was greater because they empty all of their … venom pouch? … in a single bite. I have no idea if that is true [It isn’t](http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu5/hayes1995.pdf). Note two takeaways from that paper : a) juvenile rattlesnakes can clearly regulate the amount, since they do it by the second run while still juveniles; and b) before gaining any experience, they inject the same _ **smaller** _ amount into all prey. The myth requires them to go all-in, not be overly cautious. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/34 "2021-08-12T05:54:49Z")
Thanks for the link. But the issues with snakes and Cleopatra suicide are 1. Getting it to bite on command. 2. It’s only fatal if the bite occurs at certain points on the body 3. It takes hours to take effect, and is very painful, all reports state that she died more or less instantly. 4. It probably doesn’t retain sufficient venom to kill 3 fully grown women….though I always doubted that. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/35 "2021-08-12T06:22:23Z")
The first part is not an issue, scared snakes with no escape route _will_ bite. The slow death bit, for sure. Note that _one_ cobra bite is plenty enough to kill multiple people and snakes usually retain enough venom for multiple injections. I don’t buy the asp story, myself, I was just noting that full-grown snake size is not a blocker when juveniles are just as deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/36 "2021-08-12T12:18:07Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > - It probably doesn’t retain sufficient venom to kill 3 fully grown women….though I always doubted that. Is it part of the legend that it also killed a couple of her ladies-in-waiting, or something? I’ve only ever heard of Cleo herself getting the bite. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/37 "2021-08-12T13:21:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [It isn’t](http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu5/hayes1995.pdf). Note two takeaways from that paper : > a) juvenile rattlesnakes can clearly regulate the amount, since they do it by the second run while still juveniles; and > b) before gaining any experience, they inject the same _ **smaller** _ amount into all prey. The myth requires them to go all-in, not be overly cautious. That’s very interesting. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/38 "2021-08-12T14:12:24Z")
Pretty much every surviving sources states that she was found with two of her handmaidens both of whom had also died in the same manner as their mistress. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/39 "2021-08-12T14:24:20Z")
Suicide using needles dipped in venom or some other poison makes the most sense and the marks might look similar to a bite. That said, a death in captivity isn’t always suicide or sanctioned execution. Guards and jailers who tire of their current duty have an easy solution available to them. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-cleopatra/948377/40 "2021-08-12T14:27:57Z")
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