# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/282 "2009-03-31T00:25:44Z")
Am I the only one who finds **Kanicbirds** mind just utterly fascinating? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/283 "2009-03-31T00:28:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Biological parents don’t preclude Jezebel being a demon. How so? Demons are supposed to be supernatural spirits, right? So they wouldn’t have human parents. Isn’t it more plausable she was just a Canaanite princess who didn’t want to adopt her husband’s religion? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/284 "2009-03-31T00:32:55Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Faith is entirely unneeded for science, in fact faith gets in the WAY of science because it creates stubborn adherence to old rules. If we had “faith” in Newtonian Mechanics we wouldn’t have General Relativity right now. You’re saying General Relativity didn’t exist until Einstein published his theory? > [@Jragon](#): > > Science, as a collective, requires no faith because anyone with a good idea and some doubt can go in and challenge it, now that doesn’t mean their assertions are true by any stretch of the imagination, but science is pretty much just a library with ever more accurate books because we constantly redefine and expand on ideas when the observations don’t match the numbers. Seems if you really feel that way you shouldn’t have a problem with people who have faith in God, because you’re saying that anyone could challenge the doubts of those who don’t believe in God and Heaven and Hell and put their faith in God. Of course, for one to do that they have to wait until they die or wait for the return of Jesus… but if people can’t be resurrected to tell about it and when Jesus returns it is too late… there is really no way to prove or disprove it. You don’t need solid scientific proof for something to exist. This goes back to General Relativity. Those mathematics and natural sciences existed before they were proved. It’s not like black holes magically appeared when Einstein came up with the theory. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/285 "2009-03-31T00:41:06Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > If he’s always the same, how does he DO anything? Doing requires action and action requires change. If God is really unchanging then he also is incapable of interacting with the world. God has no limitations. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/286 "2009-03-31T00:41:18Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > He just IS and wasn’t created. The universe just is, and wasn’t created. My belief system makes your god unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/287 "2009-03-31T00:46:33Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > You’re saying General Relativity didn’t exist until Einstein published his theory? I’ll speculate that Jragon is _not_ saying this and you’re either displaying ignorance or willful blindness. General Relativity is a model for describing the universe that clarifies some gray areas in Newton’s Mechanics. I expect some later model will come along that refines GR, eventually. If Einstein had never lived and GR never codified, we’d likely still be speculating on how the sun works and we might not have nuclear reactors or the Global Position System and so forth. > [@](#): > > Seems if you really feel that way you shouldn’t have a problem with people who have faith in God I know _I_ wouldn’t, as long as they recognize the limitations of their beliefs and not try to force them into area where they don’t belong. You’re free to speculate all you want on this harmless message board. I have to watch out for people trying to force creationism into the schools. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/288 "2009-03-31T00:48:07Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Again, I’m not challenging your authority, simply defending myself. > > If the people I was referring to believe they are evolved from a type of ape, and simian means “of or pertaining to apes”, and these people believe they are “of” ape, why should what I said be considered an insult? You are not making points with this sort of sophomoric defense. While I am sure that this is a waste of effort, I will take the time to point out your error: Being descended from a line of primates that includes apes implies that development and change has occurred. Simian, refering to apes and monkeys clearly indicates those species that have not moved into the hominid category, therefore, it does not legitimately belong to humans. Beyond that, simian is clearly a word that, when applied to humans, is considered an insult on all occasions. You may attack other ideas. You may not attack other posters. Any further attempts to play these games will simply result in more Warnings and jeopardize you ability to post on this board. I have no intention or desire to get you thrown off. I figure that every poster in this thread knows what he or she is doing, (futile though that is in every case), but I will not put up with posters ignoring the rules. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/289 "2009-03-31T00:56:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > How so? Demons are supposed to be supernatural spirits, right? So they wouldn’t have human parents. Isn’t it more plausable she was just a Canaanite princess who didn’t want to adopt her husband’s religion? Our spirit is also supernatural, we just have a natural body, which scriptures refer to as a ‘tent’ which is a temporary dwelling. Scriptures speak of angels that abandoned their abode (Jude 1:6). Again we have Judas, who is identified as a devil directly, (as opposed to Peter who gave Satan a foothold) it would seem to follow that Judas would have entered humanity the conventional way, via birth, as the pharisees, who are identified as sons of the devil. I would assume that they would have biological parents, people who attended the birth, and possible the equivalent of a birth certificate (as Jews were very big on family lineage and a pharisee would need clear family lineage) It is Jezebel’s manipulation, control she ceased, men she emasculated, that are traits of demons, not princesses. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/290 "2009-03-31T01:01:27Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because you’re willing to trade rationality for the impossible hope that the particular child’s story you’ve chosen to believe is true. It’s controlling your actions even now, making you deny evolution and act out in igorance. If I do my part in society, function like a normal human being should, love those around me and try my best to be kind, what harm am I causing anyone? If I want to turn my back on rationality and achieve the impossible, don’t I have that right? Please remember, it was once considered irrational and impossible for man to fly. Now we have hundreds of thousands of people flying around the world each day. Just because something is irrational doesn’t make it impossible. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Science isn’t about faith. Science is about things that are rational and reproducible and have evidence. Faith in the religious sense is about hoping really really really hard that the tooth fairy is real. There is no evidence that your religion is real. None. You want there to be, but stamping your feel and sobbing does not make lies true. How can you say it’s not true if you can’t disprove it with convincing evidence that proves beyond any doubt God cannot exist? Let me see your evidence that God isn’t real. Show me the evidence that there is no afterlife. Prove to me that Jesus isn’t going to descend to Earth followed by legions of angels. Just because you may believe these things to be irrational doesn’t mean they’re impossible. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/291 "2009-03-31T01:08:18Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > God has no limitations. So you’re saying that God possesses properties that contradict each other? He is both immobile and mobile simultaneously? That doesn’t even make any sense. You know, if your premises lead to nonsensical conclusions, the time has come to modify your premises … .😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/292 "2009-03-31T01:09:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Our spirit is also supernatural, we just have a natural body, which scriptures refer to as a ‘tent’ which is a temporary dwelling. Scriptures speak of angels that abandoned their abode (Jude 1:6). Again we have Judas, who is identified as a devil directly, (as opposed to Peter who gave Satan a foothold) it would seem to follow that Judas would have entered humanity the conventional way, via birth, as the pharisees, who are identified as sons of the devil. I would assume that they would have biological parents, people who attended the birth, and possible the equivalent of a birth certificate (as Jews were very big on family lineage and a pharisee would need clear family lineage) > > It is Jezebel’s manipulation, control she ceased, men she emasculated, that are traits of demons, not princesses. First of all, Judas and the pharasees are called devils metaphorically (as, btw is Peter. See Matt. 16:23 and Mark 8:33). Secondly, regarding Jezebel herself, two points. First of all, she doesn’t really manipulate anyone in the text. The closest she comes to that is to find people who accuse Naboth of blasphemy. Secondly, manipulation isn’t really that unusual among queens, or anyone who only has any power because of their personal relationship with someone else. Thirdly, she’s not even the worst person in the bible. She’s not even the worst person in the book of Kings. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/293 "2009-03-31T01:10:05Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Please remember, it was once considered irrational and impossible for man to fly. Now we have hundreds of thousands of people flying around the world each day. Just because something is irrational doesn’t make it impossible. Well, when someone achieves flight through faith (as opposed to applied physics and engineering), I will be extremely impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/294 "2009-03-31T01:11:11Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > We don’t know. Oh, sure we have structures that show potentials for how energy became matter and how matter got mass after the Big Bang. The usual question then is “well, where did the explodey thing come from?” The answer to which is “we have no idea.” Science doesn’t really even have a (credible) model for that, or pre-Big Bang (or anything before the Planck Time, for that matter). I suppose you’ll use this as ammo for “see? See!? Science doesn’t know everything but the Bible does!” But it really just highlights the lack of faith science needs and the fact that’s its main function truly is observational, rather than explanatory which is what we’ve been saying all along. > > Hey, we’re honest about it. In that case, Science does operate with faith. I’m sure there are scientists who hope to discover what was before the big bang. I’m positive there are scientists who still theorize about it, build models, do equations, all because they want to discover the truth. That’s faith. They don’t know what existed before the big bang and whatever it was there is no doubt that it had to exist. If they didn’t have faith in it they would give up on trying to figure out what it was because they would have no hope in making that discovery. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/295 "2009-03-31T01:11:18Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > How can you say it’s not true if you can’t disprove it with convincing evidence that proves beyond any doubt God cannot exist? Let me see your evidence that God isn’t real. Show me the evidence that there is no afterlife. Prove to me that Jesus isn’t going to descend to Earth followed by legions of angels. You are the one making the extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you to submit evidence that god exists. This is how logic works; if it were as you seem to think, we would have to believe in everything the human imagination could conjure up, because there is no proof that it does not exist. Unicorns. Boogeymen. Tooth fairies. There is no proof that any of these do not exist; do you believe in them as well? ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/296 "2009-03-31T01:18:04Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > God is God of all things making Him God of gods and His son Jesus has the keys of Hell. What authority do Zeus, Odin or Quetzalcoatl have over my eternal soul? > > “Choose you this day whom ye will serve… but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”–Joshua 24:15 No, see. According to you, your god is above all the others, and only he can send you to heaven or hell. According to other people, their gods are above yours, and they can do what they want with your soul. You have exactly the same thing backing you up as they do - your feelings. And according to Holiness in a Can, the religious text of Strinkanism, “And ye, this book is god’s own words because god says so, and we know god says that because it says so in this book.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/297 "2009-03-31T01:29:43Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > Because if they let the ET nutters in, then they’d open the floodgates to the Kennedy assassination nutters, the hollow earth nutters, the moon landing hoax nutters, the “9/11 was an inside job” nutters, the New World Order nutters, the Illuminati nutters, and the mole people nutters. Does the Vatican really want: > > A. thousands of these woo-woos pawing through their historical documents? > B. To have their name _associated_ with these people? That and those are priceless historical documents-you don’t want just anyone going in there and wrecking anything that can’t be replaced. Hell, any government archives are like that. > [@DocCathode](#): > > Am I the only one who finds **Kanicbirds** mind just utterly fascinating? No. (Yikes-my head hurts. I want to go back to the days when I was told that the most important thing was the Golden Rule. Oh, and having to say ten Hail Marys for listening in at the confessional once) ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/298 "2009-03-31T01:40:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You are the one making the extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you to submit evidence that god exists. This is how logic works; if it were as you seem to think, we would have to believe in everything the human imagination could conjure up, because there is no proof that it does not exist. Unicorns. Boogeymen. Tooth fairies. There is no proof that any of these do not exist; do you believe in them as well? Ironically enough - he should know this - if he’s read his book at all. Thomas himself, when presented with the risen Jesus demanded such proof. Thomas did not take it on faith alone that Jesus had risen. So, if a direct follower demands hard evidence that his faith is justified - why shouldn’t I do the same? To this point, no ‘proof’ has been offered that satisfies my demand, in fact, the more I searched trying to prove that my faith wasn’t built on man’s word, the more I realized that ALL “revealed” religions are a tool to enslave the weak minded. Rational thought, and the desire to constanly question the ‘status quo’ is what drives us forward. As another poster above stated “We don’t know - but atleast we’re honest about it.” That is the hallmark of an intellectually honest mind. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/299 "2009-03-31T01:59:27Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Ironically enough - he should know this - if he’s read his book at all. Thomas himself, when presented with the risen Jesus demanded such proof. Thomas did not take it on faith alone that Jesus had risen. > > So, if a direct follower demands hard evidence that his faith is justified - why shouldn’t I do the same? > > To this point, no ‘proof’ has been offered that satisfies my demand, in fact, the more I searched trying to prove that my faith wasn’t built on man’s word, the more I realized that ALL “revealed” religions are a tool to enslave the weak minded. > > Rational thought, and the desire to constanly question the ‘status quo’ is what drives us forward. As another poster above stated “We don’t know - but atleast we’re honest about it.” That is the hallmark of an intellectually honest mind. Assuming parargraph 4 is true, paragraph 3 exposes you as dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/300 "2009-03-31T02:48:20Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Assuming parargraph 4 is true, paragraph 3 exposes you as dishonest. Do the words “To this point” not indicate anything to you? In case they don’t, thats what they call a “qualifier” - and it clearly indicates that I’m still open to such proof - should it ever be presented. So, how does that make me dishonest? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/301 "2009-03-31T02:53:52Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Then why aren’t you worried about getting into the Vatican archives to expose Christians as the loonies they are? Why bother ? Christianity is lunacy on the face of it. It’s OBVIOUS nonsense. There’s no need to dig into musty archives to prove the obvious. Christianity is baseless, contradictory to reality, and it’s silly. The fact that so many still buy into it and other religions is an indictment of humanity. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > In other words, faith is a pretty word for insanity or foolishness. Faith isn’t admirable; it’s a defect, a serious one. Faith is the crippling of the mind. “Faith is the substance of things hoped for…”–Hebrews 11:1 [/quote] No, faith is self delusion and blindness. The embracing of fantasy over reality. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Why is it insane that I hope for eternal life? How is that a crippling defect? Because it is a denial of reality, and leads to stupid and evil behavior. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > If matter can neither be created or destroyed, where did matter come from? It can be, and is all the time. Turn on a car, and a little of the matter in the fuel becomes energy; set off a nuke, and a somewhat larger amount of matter becomes energy. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > If I do my part in society, function like a normal human being should, love those around me and try my best to be kind, what harm am I causing anyone? If I want to turn my back on rationality and achieve the impossible, don’t I have that right? No, because achieving the impossible is, by definition, impossible. And people who turn their back on rationality are a danger to themselves and others. And if you do so, you certainly won’t “do my part in society, function like a normal human being should, love those around me and try my best to be kind”; those all require rationality to do well. Or else you’ll, say, beat your child to death to get the demons out, meaning well the whole time. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Please remember, it was once considered irrational and impossible for man to fly. Now we have hundreds of thousands of people flying around the world each day. Just because something is irrational doesn’t make it impossible. Yes, it does. Flight was never irrational. The simple existence of birds showed that it was possible. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > How can you say it’s not true if you can’t disprove it with convincing evidence that proves beyond any doubt God cannot exist? Let me see your evidence that God isn’t real. Show me the evidence that there is no afterlife. Prove to me that Jesus isn’t going to descend to Earth followed by legions of angels. Just because you may believe these things to be irrational doesn’t mean they’re impossible. The laws of physics, not to mention logic rule out your God. And a any rate, it’s not my job to disprove vapor, but yours to come up with some actual evidence. Am I also supposed to disprove the claim that next week we’ll be invaded by invisible pink bunnies ? > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > In that case, Science does operate with faith. I’m sure there are scientists who hope to discover what was before the big bang. I’m positive there are scientists who still theorize about it, build models, do equations, all because they want to discover the truth. That’s faith. They don’t know what existed before the big bang and whatever it was there is no doubt that it had to exist. If they didn’t have faith in it they would give up on trying to figure out what it was because they would have no hope in making that discovery. None of that has anything to do with faith. They wouldn’t be investigating anything if they had faith; they’d just declare some random idea to be “true” and stop. Faith is the end of thought and inquiry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=16)