# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/342 "2009-03-31T22:03:28Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > God tends to let things happen as they should and rarely interferes with nature, but God can, and does, allow supernatural occurrences as He sees fit. Sometimes he lets little babies drown without lifting a finger to save them. Even though it would be trivial for him to do so. I wouldn’t sit idly by and let a baby drown. I can’t imagine worshipping a being who would. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/343 "2009-03-31T22:06:49Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > The same thing could be asked about evolution. And the entirely consistent answer is, “We don’t know yet.” Why creationists see this as an “ah HAH!!” moment is beyond me. The universe is knowable, and we add to our knowledge every day. Religious dogma regarding the creation of the universe is stagnant, and hasn’t changed in a thousand years or more. Any belief system that refuses to modify itself when confronted with new information contributes not to the improvement of mankind, but to the detriment of our species. The sooner we can accept the notion that it is not necessary to imagine explanations for things we as yet have no evidence for, the sooner we can throw off the oppressive ignorance that religion enslaves us with. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/344 "2009-03-31T22:07:18Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > If that’s the case, then you’ve lost _everything_. If this life is all we have, and you squander it in pursuit of an imaginary infinite bonus round, then you have squandered everything. Wake up, this is all there is; get the most out of it in the here and now. I haven’t lost anything. I’ve enjoyed my time spent with family and friends. I’ve enjoyed earning money to buy shiny toys to play with. If I died in my sleep tonight, I would die knowing that I have had a great life and have enjoyed my time in life. Isn’t that what life is? Making the best of it for yourself and those you love? Besides… anyone who dies quite literally loses everything. How many dead people are still enjoying their worldly possessions? More importantly, what has anyone gained from death? A name? Fame? Fortune? What does any of that matter if they are dead? The more important thing is that IF this life isn’t all we have (and it isn’t), then I have done what was required of me to inherit eternal life and I’ve gained so much more than I could have ever lost IF this life was all we had. Wake up. If you haven’t died, and don’t believe anyone could come back from the dead, how can you be so sure that there isn’t anything after this life? ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/345 "2009-03-31T22:16:18Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > What _percentage_ of evolutionists would you say have done that. > > And I certainly hope you have more to cite than Piltdown Man or the arthritic Neandertal. Creationists act like those are the only hominid specimens ever unearthed. How about the EMBRYONIC RECAPITULATION HOAX? Besides, it wouldn’t matter what percentage of evolutionists have presented fraudulent material. Even if it is a small percentage, it was for the “biggest” and “most important” findings to support evolution. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/346 "2009-03-31T22:16:24Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Sometimes he lets little babies drown without lifting a finger to save them. Even though it would be trivial for him to do so. > > I wouldn’t sit idly by and let a baby drown. I can’t imagine worshipping a being who would. You miss an obvious objection. If God exists, and we have souls, then death is meaningless. The drowned babies simply go from existing in one state to existing in another. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/347 "2009-03-31T22:18:09Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Wake up. If you haven’t died, and don’t believe anyone could come back from the dead, how can you be so sure that there isn’t anything after this life? Wake up yourself. Since God never reveals Himself in public, never answers prayers and allows contradictory religions + squabbling sects, why should we believe He exists? **And if there isn’t any afterlife, how would we prove it?!** No afterlife would mean no messages from beyond the grave, no miracles and no clear guidance from God. Which is exactly what we’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/348 "2009-03-31T22:21:48Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Wake up. If you haven’t died, and don’t believe anyone could come back from the dead, how can you be so sure that there isn’t anything after this life? Faith. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/349 "2009-03-31T22:22:10Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Sometimes he lets little babies drown without lifting a finger to save them. Even though it would be trivial for him to do so. > > I wouldn’t sit idly by and let a baby drown. I can’t imagine worshipping a being who would. My favorite religious explanation for this; “They were evil babies !”. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > The more important thing is that IF this life isn’t all we have (and it isn’t), then I have done what was required of me to inherit eternal life and I’ve gained so much more than I could have ever lost IF this life was all we had. You don’t know that, as various people have pointed out. Even assuming that there is an afterlife, you have no way to tell that you haven’t condemned yourself to eternal suffering, or for that matter if there is anything else BUT eternal suffering. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Wake up. If you haven’t died, and don’t believe anyone could come back from the dead, how can you be so sure that there isn’t anything after this life? Because there’s no way for that to work. We know that the mind is a function of the brain, and therefore when the brain dies, we die. The soul, the afterlife are just self indulgent fantasies with zero evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/350 "2009-03-31T22:24:02Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > The same thing could be asked about evolution. > > At least those who believe in God recognize that God can do all things, and nothing is impossible for God, and with God all things are possible. > > To answer your question, though. God said “Let there be light” and there was light. And shouldn’t such a powerful force of nature be obvious and apparant to all? At least as much as, say, gravity? ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/351 "2009-03-31T22:24:52Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > It is almost sad that I have to cite this when, in fact, I learned this in grade school science. I thought everyone knew this. > > “Energy **can be transformed (changed from one form to another)**, but it can neither be created nor destroyed.” > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First\_law\_of\_thermodynamics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics) Bolding mine. Note that that section was missing from your initial statement back in Post #315. Go back and read it again. > **[Mass–energy equivalence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_energy_equivalence)** > > In physics, mass–energy equivalence is the relationship between mass and energy in a system's rest frame. The two differ only by a multiplicative constant and the units of measurement. The principle is described by the physicist Albert Einstein's formula:  > > > > E > = > m > > c > > 2 > > > > > {\\displaystyle E=mc^{2}} > > . In a reference frame where the system is moving, its relativistic energy and r The form... ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/352 "2009-03-31T22:28:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. Various energetic events, like matter falling into a black hole can create it. As can random particle collisions, and so on. Oh yes. Because Science has recorded and proven evidence that the matter falling into a black hole has become antimatter. It’s still just a theory. No one has proved it. That’s something they can’t prove because anything to study is too far away. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As for the “creationist’s view point on antimatter”; since as a creationist they are by definition either ignorant or a fool, their opinion isn’t worth much. Name-calling, special-pleading, begging the question, and other such tactics ultimately are inadequate in responding to the scientific evidences presented by creationists. Men like Kepler, Boyle, Pascal, Newton, Faraday, Pasteur, Maxwell, Kelvin, and a score of others who founded the various disciplines of science, were creationists, not evolutionists. All **real** scientists are not necessarily evolutionists. There are thousands of bona fide scientists today who are creationists, not evolutionists. They have graduate degrees from accredited institutions of higher learning, and have records and credentials comparable to those of any other segment of the scientific community. There are creationist Ph.D.s, M.D.s, Sc.D.s, etc. in every branch of the pure and applied sciences—biology, geology, physics, engineering, medicine, and so on. (taken from [dripping springs](http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1979)) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/353 "2009-03-31T22:33:50Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > It’s still just a theory. No one has proved it. You clearly have zero idea what the word theory means in science. It does not mean guess or idea. A theory is a hypothesis that has been proven repeatedly. Gravity is a theory. Relativity is a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/354 "2009-03-31T22:35:15Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > And the entirely consistent answer is, “We don’t know yet.” Why creationists see this as an “ah HAH!!” moment is beyond me. Well… Christians and Creationists _do_ know. That is why it is our “ah hah” moment… because we do know the origins of the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/355 "2009-03-31T22:35:49Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > You are twisting my words. When I said “God doesn’t interfere with nature” I meant “God tends to let things happen as they should”. Since God is omniscient, he was well aware when he created the earth that his design would eventually kill hundreds of thousands of people. So, either he didn’t care, in which case he is evil, or he couldn’t do it right, in which case he is not omnipotent. Take your pick. > [@](#): > > I never said He didn’t intervene. Sometimes there are other factors involved. I do believe that God parted the Red Sea for Moses, made the EARTH stand still for Joshua (it is because the Earth rotates on an axis that causes the Sun to rise and set), and I believe the other accounts of Divine intervention that are recorded. I never said God doesn’t allow supernatural occurrences. God doesn’t interfere with the way He intended things to be. God, being omniscient, and knowing before hand that Joshua would need the sun for longer than the sun is usually out, could have intended a (super)natural occurrence to cause the earth to stop (more likely extremely slow down) the rotation of the Earth. This could have happened naturally within the laws He created. Let a supernatural occurrence happen? That’s odd. Do they tend to happen all the time, and he stops most, or do they just conveniently happen when the story requires it? As for it happening under natural laws - well you spoke the truth when you said you were no scientist. There is an awful lot of angular momentum - where did it go? Why wasn’t everyone killed when the air, rushing at 1,000 miles an hour when the earth suddenly stopped, blew them away? And why did no one else notice this? > [@](#): > > Besides, God, being the Creator of the universe and all things, has every right to interfere or intervene as He sees fit. He isn’t going to stop volcanoes from erupting or the earth from shaking unless He has a really good reason. He created those events for a purpose, and there is purpose and reason behind those events. As I said, God works in mysterious ways. I guess it is easier to say the babies killed in the so-called flood were evil and deserved to die than to say the same about the babies killed in the tsunami. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/356 "2009-03-31T22:36:51Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Well… Christians and Creationists _do_ know. That is why it is our “ah hah” moment… because we do know the origins of the universe. No, you just claim you know. You really don’t know jack. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/357 "2009-03-31T22:40:44Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Oh yes. Because Science has recorded and proven evidence that the matter falling into a black hole has become antimatter. It’s still just a theory. No one has proved it. That’s something they can’t prove because anything to study is too far away. Of course it can be proven, distance or not. Infalling and radiated material produces light, which can be analyzed to discover all sorts of information. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Name-calling, special-pleading, begging the question, and other such tactics ultimately are inadequate in responding to the scientific evidences presented by creationists. No such evidence has ever been presented. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Men like Kepler, Boyle, Pascal, Newton, Faraday, Pasteur, Maxwell, Kelvin, and a score of others who founded the various disciplines of science, were creationists, not evolutionists. They also lived in a more ignorant era. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > All **real** scientists are not necessarily evolutionists. There are thousands of bona fide scientists today who are creationists, not evolutionists. They have graduate degrees from accredited institutions of higher learning, and have records and credentials comparable to those of any other segment of the scientific community. Then they are speaking on a subject outside of their area of expertise, which means their opinion isn’t especially credible. And religious scientists on the whole tend to have inferior “records and credentials”, unsurprisingly. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming; the evidence for creationism zero. Creationism is wrong, whether you like it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/358 "2009-03-31T22:44:34Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Wake up yourself. Since God never reveals Himself in public, never answers prayers and allows contradictory religions + squabbling sects, why should we believe He exists? > > **And if there isn’t any afterlife, how would we prove it?!** > > No afterlife would mean no messages from beyond the grave, no miracles and no clear guidance from God. Which is exactly what we’ve got. God has answered some of my prayers. Please don’t say He hasn’t. God doesn’t have to reveal Himself in public because only the non-believers want proof… and even IF God revealed Himself in public to convert the non-believers, the non-believers would try to come up with scientific explanations to deny what they saw being God. Believers have proof and see it daily. God wants us to believe through faith, not proof. Answer me this. If God Himself visited you and said “Hey, I’m God”, and you knew without any doubt that it was God, would you at that very moment believe in God and devote your life to serving Him? The very basis of Christian belief is that God resurrected Christ from death, and Christ lives eternally sitting at the right hand of God. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/359 "2009-03-31T22:47:55Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Well… Christians and Creationists _do_ know. That is why it is our “ah hah” moment… because we do know the origins of the universe. Not as far as I am concerned. Your standards of proof are so low as to be non-existent. There is as much proof for the existence of unicorns as there is for the existence of god. Do you believe in unicorns? Can you prove they do not exist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/360 "2009-03-31T22:51:23Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Answer me this. If God Himself visited you and said “Hey, I’m God”, and you knew without any doubt that it was God, would you at that very moment believe in God and devote your life to serving Him? Answer me this. If a hypnotist visited you hypnotized you and said, “Hey, you’re a chicken”, and you knew without a doubt that you were a chicken, would you at that very moment believe that you were a chicken and devote your time to clucking and looking for bugs to eat? Would you then be a chicken, or would you be someone who was fooled into believing he was a chicken? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/361 "2009-03-31T23:10:32Z")
> [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > God has answered some of my prayers. Please don’t say He hasn’t. He hasn’t because he doesn’t exist. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Believers have proof and see it daily. God wants us to believe through faith, not proof. In other words, he only wants followers with poor judgement. > [@Lacunas Quell](#): > > Answer me this. If God Himself visited you and said “Hey, I’m God”, and you knew without any doubt that it was God, would you at that very moment believe in God and devote your life to serving Him? No. Assuming that a god exists, he’s clearly evil, or incompetent, or indifferent, or Lovecraftian ( the standard Christian apologetic God who does awful things for reasons we don’t understand being an example of the latter ). And I have no desire to serve ANYONE. I’d be more inclined to try to find a way to kill him, if I thought it possible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=19)