# Who Killed Jesus? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168 "2009-03-29T07:47:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/542 "2009-04-05T05:48:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If you don’t think they are deluded, why are you an atheist ? > > It’s not something that’s just a matter of opinion; either there’s a God, or there isn’t. One side has to be wrong. This doesn’t necessarily hold – one side’s opinion of what a God is may not be what the other side rejects (a fairly common occurrence, in my experience – what some people reject is erroneous doctrine the other side never actually believed, akin to the Great Sky Pixie meme). A _deus otiosus_, for example, who “sets the dominoes falling” and then sits back to watch the outcome without intervening, is quite in accord with what a Mechanist atheist believes to be true – “no evidence for God”, that is. I’ve often wondered what a calm rational account of a theophanic experience would sound like to an agnostic or ‘soft’ atheist. Someone who takes into account that there are delusional people around, and tests his own experiences against such behavior. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/543 "2009-04-05T06:05:36Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’ve often wondered what a calm rational account of a theophanic experience would sound like to an agnostic or ‘soft’ atheist. Someone who takes into account that there are delusional people around, and tests his own experiences against such behavior. Sort of like [an old conversation we had](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7928777&postcount=584). ---
**Author:** ![chowder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@chowder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chowder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/544 "2009-04-05T07:17:29Z")
An old geezer many yaers ago explained it to me thus: At the time of Jesus’ alleged crucifixion the Romans were getting a load of earache from the Jews who wanted them to just fuck off and let them alone. Jesus was an advocate of this “Home rule for us” and had the gift of the gab. The Romans and some of the Jewish priests were mightily pissed at Jesus, he was rocking the boat so they decided to get rid of him, cooked up a plan, had the Romans arrest him and we know the rest. In other words, Jesus was just an ordinary bloke with the power of oratory (pretty good at magic tricks also) Following his death a whole bunch of misguided chappies wrote a whole bunch of twaddle. The End ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2009, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/545 "2009-04-05T14:48:59Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Am I the only atheist on the Board who doesn’t think that all Xtians are evil or deluded? I’m Buddhist \*, not atheist, so my perspective may or may not be of interest, but I don’t think all Christians are deluded or evil. I’ve known one or two who walked the walk, rather than talked the talk. I respect these principled, decent people very much, and as a result have more respect for the religion than I would otherwise have had. However, I’ve known a lot of deluded or evil ones. \*Buddhism pretty much accepts that gods may exist, but regards them as irrelevant to the real questions of life. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/546 "2009-04-06T08:56:01Z")
Of one thing I am certain - the Word Of God was not written in English, so how many believers can truly say they understand it, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/547 "2009-04-06T09:12:29Z")
(missed the edit window) Another stumbling block is, God is Great - he can do anything if he truly wants to, but he’s mysterious in his ways and so far beyond mortal intellect it is almost pointless trying to understand him. But at the same time, he WANTS us all to understand and obey him - but not in a bullying, forceful kind of way, but because he is a great geezer underneath his omniscient, omnipotent exterior. Yet despite all this, when he sent his chosen earthly representative to explain the errors of our ways, he couldn’t even send a vision to a renowned scribe to go along to his birthplace and document this miraculous child’s life. Or better still, have scribes from all around the world come and document his life. So Lacunae and kanicbird, let’s hear what you’ve got! ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/548 "2009-04-06T11:58:24Z")
> [@chowder](#): > > In other words, Jesus was just an ordinary bloke with the power of oratory ( **pretty good at magic tricks also** ) I resent this comment! I _am_ a professional magician, and I’m well aware of how much time and effort it takes to be a good magician. This is not an accolade to be awarded lightly. There is _no evidence at all_ that JC was a good magician! Sure, you can point to some stories in the New Testament, i.e. some half-baked, endlessly re-copied, re-translated and mutually conflicting accounts based on an amalgam of oral history, hearsay, wishful thinking, propaganda and pre-existing mythology written at least 70 years after the guy died and since then selectively revised at various theological councils. I say I’d like to see some better evidence than that. Let’s see him take to the stage in front of a late-night paying audience and see how long he lasts. Let’s see his moves, his misdirection and timing. Let’s see him handle a few hecklers. _‘Pretty good at magic tricks’_. Mmm. Let’s see him walk the talk before we make that judgment. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/549 "2009-04-06T13:08:35Z")
It’s not too often that you see someone object to being compared to Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/550 "2009-04-06T18:02:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Of one thing I am certain - the Word Of God was not written in English, so how many believers can truly say they understand it, I wonder? I know at least two ministers in the Church of God in Christ who aver that the one true Word of God is the King James translation, and that all other extant scriptural texts–including those in Hebrew, Greek, & Aramaic–are corrupt and untrustworthy. Any deviations between the KJV and earlier texts are explained as the work of the Devil, who introduced errors of transcription & so forth to mislead the Jews, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and so forth. It’s their way of compensating for not having classical educations, I 'spose. Sadly they cannot make up for being morons. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/551 "2009-04-06T20:17:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I know at least two ministers in the Church of God in Christ who aver that the one true Word of God is the King James translation, and that all other extant scriptural texts–including those in Hebrew, Greek, & Aramaic–are corrupt and untrustworthy. Any deviations between the KJV and earlier texts are explained as the work of the Devil, who introduced errors of transcription & so forth to mislead the Jews, the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, and so forth. > > It’s their way of compensating for not having classical educations, I 'spose. Sadly they cannot make up for being morons. But but but but it’s the Word Of God. Isn’t it? I mean, come on now. It’s like all literal and stuff. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/552 "2009-04-06T20:56:24Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > But but but but it’s the Word Of God. Isn’t it? I mean, come on now. It’s like all literal and stuff. :eek: According to at least one of the ministers in question, only the KJV is inspired. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/553 "2009-04-06T21:00:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > According to at least one of the ministers in question, only the KJV is inspired. He is a fucking idiot then. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/554 "2009-04-06T21:03:36Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He is a fucking idiot then. I think I implied that. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/555 "2009-04-07T01:40:54Z")
Well, by the older nomenclature, a moron had an IQ between 50 and 69 while an idiot had an IQ below 20, so you needed to imply harder. (Jack Chick holds a similar belief regarding the KJV, so you do have one benchmark for comparison.) ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/556 "2009-04-07T03:36:26Z")
Such retrograde interpretations are not unusual in religious circles. It seems to be pretty common in islam to claim that the bible has been corrupted and that, if it hadn’t been, it would have been more like the quran. Hence God sent down the quran to correct the mistakes in the bible. This is used to explain any discrepancies between the two books. Also, apparently, Abraham wandered off on a three month trek through the Arabian desert to found the Kaa’ba, not once but twice, because he had to be made to go back with Ishmael to make the chronology fit (so Ishmael could help him build it). The second time he would have been about 90. But for some reason none of this makes it into the bible’s account of Abraham’s (already hectic) life. These two enormous life-threatening journeys (even now, in an air conditioned car, it would be a bit of a drag) never get a mention in the bible because they’ve been corrupted out of it. But I’m pretty sure other religions do this too. That was just one example that sprang to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/557 "2009-04-07T03:40:29Z")
**Tom** , please keep this thread open… in all honesty I really don’t care if people insult me… please don’t close it… pwetty pwease _gives puppy dog eyes_. Couldn’t you possibly make a forum where ANYTHING goes (with a few exceptions such as racism or stuff along that line)? To everyone else… I haven’t had much time to participate in this thread lately… I do intend on trying to figure out the contradictions that you pointed out… however, when I challenged you to prove the scriptures wrong I didn’t mean those contradictions… I meant stuff like… prove, using the Bible, that Jesus isn’t “the way, the truth and the life” or that God isn’t love… things of that nature… I should have some time tomorrow to read through the more recent posts and hopefully answer some of the questions… PLEASE TOM… don’t close the thread v.v I won’t even make any new threads if you keep this one open… this could be my own thread… but can’t you move it or make a forum where anything goes so you don’t have to worry so much about modding? This thread really has been beneficial (or at least mildly entertaining) for believers and non-believers alike. I don’t care if people insult me and I rarely, if ever, insult anyone. Please, mate! However… I know you’re just doing your job and if you absolutely feel the need to close this thread I won’t argue or be upset with you. This thread does make me feel good though… just talking and debating and arguing with folk… and it’s not like I wouldn’t start a new thread with similar topics. I can’t stress it enough how much I love coming to this thread and the conversations we’ve been having. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/558 "2009-04-07T03:49:53Z")
What are you on about, **Quell**? The only statement I have made on the issue has been to say that I do not intend to close it. This is not a declaration that it will remain open until the end of time, but it is not much worse than many other threads and I see no reason to shut it down at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/559 "2009-04-07T11:05:54Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Quell](#): > > \*\*however, when I challenged you to prove the scriptures wrong I didn’t mean those contradictions… I meant stuff like… prove, using the Bible, that Jesus isn’t “the way, the truth and the life” or that God isn’t love… things of that nature… Do you believe we must prove the bible wrong, or else accept the existence of god? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/560 "2009-04-07T12:36:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you believe we must prove the bible wrong, or else accept the existence of god? No, I think he wants to see you disprove the myth and you are only allowed to do so by using the myth-book itself… errr.. I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Quell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Quell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Quell)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168/561 "2009-04-07T20:06:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Compare the geneology of Christ Jesus from Matthew with that in Luke. They cannot be reconciled. > > I’m sure that you will say that one recounts Jesus’ ancestry on Mary’s side, the other’s on Joseph’s. Please explain which one is which, and why. > > While you care looking at these geneologies, please examine the claim in Matthew that the generations from Abraham to David were 14 in number, that the generations from David to the exile were 14 in number, and that the generations from the Exile to Christ was 14. Copy the list down and count for your ownself. If you paid attention in kindergarten, you will notice a discrepency. > > While you’re in the New Testament, examine the four Passion narratives. This is the most important story of the mythology, no? Why is it that each one contradicts the others? Examine the resurrection narratives while you’re at it. > > Those are off the top of my head. I haven’t a Bible nearby, but if you wish I will look at one of mine later and find some more internal contradictions. But first I’d like to see your responses to the ones I just mentioned. I’m well aware of those contradictions and they weren’t enough to make me believe the Bible is false. The answers can easily be found with a Google search… If you would really believe the Bible is the Word of God after I answered those then I would take the time to explain them… but since the answers can be found on the internet, then if you really want the explanations you can find them yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/who-killed-jesus/491168.md?page=29)